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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Struggling with my political allegiance now and it's really bothering me

267 replies

Appalonia · 04/09/2025 22:46

Since the eighties, I have been a leftie, raised money for the Miners ' strike, was in the SWP for a while in the 90s, lifelong Guardian reader, worked for charities for most of my career. However, I'm so disillusioned with what the left has become now. It started as for many of us with the trans issue, seeing formally trusted and respected institutions like the BBC, the Guardian, C4 etc either ignore, or blatantly skew the issues, the only place I could read the truth about what was happening was on ' right wing' media outlets that I would have dismissed outright previously.

Since it was only right wing outlets or posters that were talking about this, pp like Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, The Spectator etc, I feel like I've been exposed to right wing views that I now feel more more aligned to than left wing commentators like Owen Jones, Mark Steel, most comedians etc.

I now listen to Trigggernometry, Free Speech Nation The Lotus Eaters, and I'm starting to feel more aligned to them on other issues now, like free speech, immigration etc.

So, I'm thinking about the demonstration for free speech in London on 13 September in London and part of me really wants to go because I think it's really important and what's happened with the trans debate and how it's been reported in the press and how so many gender critical pp have been silenced. And it's not just about GC views, it's about free speech in general. But the people who are organising this, is really putting me off. I want to go and stand up for what I believe in but at the same time, this demo is being characterised as a ' far right' demonstration, and I don't want to be associated with that. In fact, years ago, I would have been on the other side, demonstrating against fascists.

I just can't disentangle it all in my mind, I believe in free speech and I do believe it's under threat in the UK, but at the same time I don't want to be associated with pp like Tommy Robinson. But even saying that, just watching his interview on Triggernometry was eye opening. Can anyone relate to this? I just feel so conflicted right now.

Sorry, I don't feel I've expressed myself very well, there's so much more th an this. I just can't square my identity of myself of a life long socialist with how much I disagree with so much of what the left stands for now, that I just don't agree with.

OP posts:
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Igneococcus · 05/09/2025 08:51

I knew it would all hinge on the word "credible".

SionnachRuadh · 05/09/2025 08:50

ArabellaScott · 05/09/2025 08:20

Yes. And Reform are.going to be the next government. The Tories are lost, and Labour is fractured and failing.

I can't imagine what carnage they are going to wreak - but those that vote for them are understandably beyond exasperated with politics in general.

The argument against them, certainly from the Tories, is that they're a bunch of amateurs who wouldn't know how to govern.

They know that's a weakness and they're trying to address it, how successfully remains to be seen. The defectors they're attracting are part of this.

But as an argument for keeping the uniparty in power, it's pretty weak. Look at the people who do have experience of governing. Not just at national level, Birmingam is bankrupt and overrun by giant rats and the council's main current priority is removing flags (just not the Palestinian ones).

I think the two big historic parties are screwed. The Lib Dems might be the most stable part of the uniparty, even if under Ed Davey the national party is Monster Raving Loony writ large, because of their local strength built on hardworking councillors and nimbyism.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:49

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

Are you saying that all the instances of trans activists holding up placards threatening violence against TERFs aren't credible threats?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 05/09/2025 08:47

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

Interruptaron incoming.

Struggling with my political allegiance now and it's really bothering me
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 05/09/2025 08:45

SaidAHipHopTheHippieToTheHippie · 05/09/2025 08:04

Don’t confuse the two things. You can agree with one thing the right does, it doesn’t mean you should vote for them.

These racists flag flyers are probably GC too, if they were educated enough to understand the term. But their flags are not about the safety of women and girls.

The Tory stance on Trans issues is not about feminism!

Flags aren't racist.

GoBackToTheStart · 05/09/2025 08:45

Stand for your views, not what people label them as, and not for a particular person as a beacon for your beliefs. The whole “left vs right” polarisation is why “the left” is trapped in a purity spiral that is slowly destroying it. You can be predominantly left wing while still having some views which people say are right wing because it isn’t all or nothing. Being “left wing” doesn’t mean you need to open your arms to the rewriting of reality at the altar of gender woo, and likewise, being “right wing” doesn’t automatically mean you are a fascist that wants all poor people to be chucked into workhouses and asylum seekers to be drowned at sea.

Views and beliefs are complex and they don’t fit neatly into a box no matter how much some people want them to, and intolerance and hyperbole on either side gets us nowhere but the shit show we have now for a political field.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:26

You're asking me to prove a negative?

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:44

ItsCoolForCats · 05/09/2025 08:36

I know what you mean op, but my view is that I have become more open minded.

I used to be a dyed in the wool lefty. I subscribed to the whole package of acceptable left wing beliefs and was pretty intolerant of other viewpoints. I only read the Guardian and watched C4 and BBC News.

What has gone on with gender ideology has really caused the blinkers to come off for me. It has made me question everything, and I know that you can't just rely on one source for your news. And I appreciate that things are a bit more complex than I previously thought, i.e. trying to find a compassionate but workable solution to immigration.

My views still align with the left on some things, and in others I'm probably more centrist now. The sad thing is that I politically homeless new because I think Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens have failed women really badly.

Agree with this. It's making me question everything.

Previously I was more likely to accept that someone was probably right about something on the basis that I agree with them about most other things. But now I've seen so many people I previously thought were intelligent and measured absolutely losing the plot over gender ideology, I can no longer trust anything they say about other subjects either.

It means there are no short cuts to forming my own opinion about things anymore, and I would rather say, "I don't know enough to have a strong opinion about that" than nail my colours to the mast one way or another because someone I trust has already done so.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:40

Shedmistress · 05/09/2025 08:30

All the times that women were murdered by men known by the police to be violent and a threat? That sort of credible threat? Or the ones on watch lists that went on to commit murder? That sort of credible threat?

Um, the context of this discussion is speech censorship of ideas…

ItsCoolForCats · 05/09/2025 08:36

I know what you mean op, but my view is that I have become more open minded.

I used to be a dyed in the wool lefty. I subscribed to the whole package of acceptable left wing beliefs and was pretty intolerant of other viewpoints. I only read the Guardian and watched C4 and BBC News.

What has gone on with gender ideology has really caused the blinkers to come off for me. It has made me question everything, and I know that you can't just rely on one source for your news. And I appreciate that things are a bit more complex than I previously thought, i.e. trying to find a compassionate but workable solution to immigration.

My views still align with the left on some things, and in others I'm probably more centrist now. The sad thing is that I politically homeless new because I think Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens have failed women really badly.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 05/09/2025 08:31

I suspect what you are seeing with British institutions as with many globally as necessity not to conflict with those & anti discrimination laws. Whilst you might feel they are cowering to 'ideology' you don't agree with, the fact is trans people are protected groups.

They may be protected by equality legislation, but only in terms of provision of services, housing, employment etc.

It does not mean that everything trans must be affirmed, nor does it mean that trans identified males can use whatever facilities they like, as they have found out since the Supreme Court ruling.

Unfortunately, too many organisations and institutions have bought into this ideology wholesale and are now having to row back their policies.

I’m so sick of hearing from TRAs ‘we’re protected under the Equality Act’. They’re not protected to do whatever the fuck they like, nor to demand people believe their bullshit.

Shedmistress · 05/09/2025 08:30

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

All the times that women were murdered by men known by the police to be violent and a threat? That sort of credible threat? Or the ones on watch lists that went on to commit murder? That sort of credible threat?

tripleginandtonic · 05/09/2025 08:28

Reform council in Nottingham have stopped the local press reporting on meetings. The far right isn't pro free speech, just the speech they want to say.

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2025 08:28

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

Did you really just say that out loud today of all days?!

Were you asleep or something?

Oh wait...

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:26

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

You're asking me to prove a negative?

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:01

This would be all very well if women enjoyed equal protection against hate speech (not to mention credible threats of harm) by trans activists.

So why don't we?

What is it about us boring female people that makes us less important and less worthy of protection than male people with gender identities?

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:25

User37482 · 05/09/2025 08:01

As an ethnic minority I would agree with the point that people carry culture with them. This can be positive or negative, some groups excel in the UK specifically because of cultural values, some flail because of their cultural values. This should not be controversial. I once pointed out to a family member that at one point I moved to a country where homosexuality was illegal, I however did not change my views on homosexuality at all just by virtue of physically being in said country.

I wouldn’t expect someone moving to the UK would suddenly become in favour of womens equality, freedom of speech (see other thread debating a morroccon activist arrested for wearing an “allah is a lesbian” t-shirt.) it’s self delusion.

I don't think they should move to the UK if they are unwilling to respect such basic values though.

Shedmistress · 05/09/2025 08:23

SaidAHipHopTheHippieToTheHippie · 05/09/2025 08:04

Don’t confuse the two things. You can agree with one thing the right does, it doesn’t mean you should vote for them.

These racists flag flyers are probably GC too, if they were educated enough to understand the term. But their flags are not about the safety of women and girls.

The Tory stance on Trans issues is not about feminism!

It is this sort of immature generalisation that pisses people off.

Unless you did a survey of everyone who has ever raised a flag you have no idea why people are doing so.

Usou · 05/09/2025 08:20

What the OP experienced happened to me around 25-30 years ago.

Now I just ignore all the right/left labels and look for the truth.

Grooming gangs would be a good example. The truth of what is happening is obvious to anybody who looks for it, ignoring any existing agendas.

ArabellaScott · 05/09/2025 08:20

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2025 08:05

Crime and poverty always go hand in hand.

Immigrants are always going to be a feature of that, because many seek to come to the UK for better economic opportunities and prospects.

This by default implies that their background prior to that is one where they are economically less well off.

So they start at the bottom of British society with the ambition and intention of moving up. This means they are in more difficult areas and are exposed to more social problems. There are often more limited legitimate opportunities than they envisaged and thus may be tempted by criminal opportunies or even necessity (just like those who have long established backgrounds in that same community).

Comparisons along race / immigration status lines often miss this problem. Comparing white affluence stable citizens with British ancestry to immigrants from none Western countries isn't a fair comparison. Comparing with white citizens of the same economic status is much more appropriate - and when you do that, you actually get a very different picture. It's a picture of political neglect of these communities and less access to opportunities compared to recent migrants. It's an economic problem primarily which are amplified by cultural differences, not caused by cultural differences.

This creates tension within an established community who feel like they are marginalised or shut out. If you have large numbers of people who can't speak English then even as the most welcoming person ever this can leave to difficulties in communication and yes perhaps a sense of social isolation and sense of second classness.

There has been a significant reduction in social mobility - again 2008 was a significant turning point in this. The removal of free university education was a consequence of government finances being squeezed post crash. This reduction of social mobility has caused resentment and frustration. Little to no investment in areas of low employment opportunities whilst then putting more competition for what jobs and housing are available is a total recipe for disaster for anyone with half a brain cell. Seeing money poor into schemes and support for migrants - however legitimate or fair their reasons are for coming to the UK - is going to lead to resentment. It's inevitable because human nature and sense of justice/fairness. You actually have to ask the question, why did no one consider this seriously rather than blaming any group involved at ground level. There's a total political void in thinking at this level. Anyone surprised it's manifesting as racism at times, needs to take a long hard look at what's happening at ground level..

It's the lefts political blind spot. Everyone has political blind spots, but the left were warned and told about it for decades but didn't take it seriously because it wasn't said by people with great educations and who are able to articulate the point well.

We've fallen into the fallacy of believing that if people are well spoken and educated they must be right but people who are lacking in this are stupid and ignorant and should be ignored.

That's not how democracies work and this arrogance in refusing to listen on a range of quite disparate and totally unrelated subjects has led to an era of grievance.

Dominic Cummings understood it. His strategy for the Official Vote Leave campaign was to not promise anything but instead hone in on these grievances and acknowledge them (this is why the leave promises were wishy washy, unconnected, sometimes contradictory and generally bollocks.) He knew that the electorate would take to the bits that connected with them and their lived experience and ignore everything else as just background noise. Arguably Farages unofficial leave campaign was actually a hindrance to this strategy because it had an image problem that drove off quite a lot of softer disillusioned who didn't like the racism.

Since then, the Conservatives were unable to move forward with Brexit promises which promised both nothing and the earth at the same time. In letting the electorate form individual concepts of what Brexit should look like in their own heads Cummings created millions of visions of Brexit but no unifying vision of Brexit which had widespread public consensus. It doomed the Conservatives to oblivion in the long run.

I think Labour recognised this danger to an extent but in taking over from the Tories and the shit show they left behind they are on a hiding to nothing especially post COVID.

Meanwhile Farage has realised how well Cummings strategy of focusing on disillusionment worked in gathering votes. And after years of things getting worse and being offered no other solution even moderates are turning to him because they've been failed and not acknowledged in their legitimate concerns. Instead they've been told to suck it up or worse told they are wrong and bigoted rather than politicians looking at the underlying issues.

As I say, Reform do not have the answers. When you see any reform candidate grilled on anything much at all they generally don't have many answers and often reveal pretty poor knowledge of the subject (see Farage on gender identity issues and where the law currently is. He couldn't identify the SC ruling and he couldn't identify the issue over medical transition not being enforceable as a prerequisite to certain rights under gender reassignment.)

Put them in power and it's going to be a car crash because they will clash with the law. Their only option will be a massive dismantling of political accountability to the public (basically public recourse through the courts) but it looks likely they will have the majority to be able to do this.

It will be a trainwreck and may end up with social unrest because it will increase rather than decrease disillusionment and levels of poverty and crime will increase.

I don't see any way around this inevitably.

As it stands if you are above a certain financial point now, you'll be ok. Be below a certain watershed and you will be utterly utterly fucked. A huge number of those who are planning to vote for Reform are below this watershed point.

The idea that a man who couldn't be fucked to turn up to his job in Brussels is suddenly going to have a personality transplant and start working his arse off running the country is the very definition of insanity itself. Yet unfortunately far too many people are buying into it.

Farage is in it for a get rich quick grift which will benefit him long term. Not to improve the country.

I am not always right with my political predictions but my track record is very good.

It scares the living bejesus out of me and I was saying prior to Mays deal being presented to the commons, that if people didn't recognise the dangers of being unable to deliver the undeliverable Farage would get in. I was worried then not about the next election but the one after that (May and Johnson decided to throw spanners in the works on how many elections it's actually turned out to be - my concern was really that we'd kick out the Tories, Labour would inherit a shit show and also fuck it up and we'd be left with a political void that Farage would capitalise on - I just got the number of PMs and elections wrong).

And here we are. Starring into the void.

It's shit. But predictable.

Yes. And Reform are.going to be the next government. The Tories are lost, and Labour is fractured and failing.

I can't imagine what carnage they are going to wreak - but those that vote for them are understandably beyond exasperated with politics in general.

SquirrelSoShiny · 05/09/2025 08:20

I am furious at 'the left' in Britain, USA, Australia and various European democracies. They completely abandoned their original core values - bringing equal opportunity for humans to thrive economically. Instead they became defenders of fashionable niche issues. The media and arts were absolutely complicit. The net effect is a terrifying push towards hard right politics.

I've been saying for years that I genuinely believe gender ideology was pushed by the right to bring about a backlash against liberal values. The left are to blame for running into the trap. Men cannot become women. Women cannot become men. 'Non-binary' is an imaginary concept.

The left told us we were bad humans for believing material reality. No wonder any intelligent person is turning away from them. The left has a very small window now to wake the fuck up, admit their mistakes and become worthy of voting for again. Less virtue signalling, more action. And yes, this includes deportation of people who have no right to be here or who we simply cannot afford to provide for.

ArabellaScott · 05/09/2025 08:15

DryAndBalmy · 05/09/2025 08:12

‘Far right’ is a term used by the left to tinge and dismiss and ‘other’ any person/ viewpoint/ initiative that doesn’t fit their own agenda.

They also say ‘spreading hate’ about anything that doesn’t align with their own diktat.

It’s an attempt to manipulate people. By blanketing a belief, eg that a man in a dress is still a man, with ‘FAR RIGHT’ and ‘SPREADING HATE’ it intimidates people into keeping quiet. Into complying with their own agenda.

See, also, teenage boys who call a girl ‘boring’ or ‘frigid’ if she won’t sleep with him. Another example of trying to manipulate and control.

Think what you think. Your views are important. Politicians care about one thing - votes/ getting re-elected.

Politicians care about several things, including lobbyists, their own post politics futures, cachet, party membership, factions, etc.

DryAndBalmy · 05/09/2025 08:12

‘Far right’ is a term used by the left to tinge and dismiss and ‘other’ any person/ viewpoint/ initiative that doesn’t fit their own agenda.

They also say ‘spreading hate’ about anything that doesn’t align with their own diktat.

It’s an attempt to manipulate people. By blanketing a belief, eg that a man in a dress is still a man, with ‘FAR RIGHT’ and ‘SPREADING HATE’ it intimidates people into keeping quiet. Into complying with their own agenda.

See, also, teenage boys who call a girl ‘boring’ or ‘frigid’ if she won’t sleep with him. Another example of trying to manipulate and control.

Think what you think. Your views are important. Politicians care about one thing - votes/ getting re-elected.

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2025 08:12

Slimtoddy · 05/09/2025 08:08

You can agree with someone on one thing but not agree with their wider views. You don't have to put yourself in a box of left or right.

Where do you stand on economic policies? Universal Basic income, minimum wage, tax policies - things like that.

Absolutely.

I agree there is a problem with how migration is being handled. I don't believe migration is necessarily a problem.

I agree there is a problem with free speech. I disagree that this means you are allowed to say absolutely anything (harassment and threats of violence are unlawful and restrict freedom of speech rather than being representative of freedom of speech).

Slimtoddy · 05/09/2025 08:08

You can agree with someone on one thing but not agree with their wider views. You don't have to put yourself in a box of left or right.

Where do you stand on economic policies? Universal Basic income, minimum wage, tax policies - things like that.