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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm confused what gender critical people want. Could someone clarify?

293 replies

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

OP posts:
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Negroany · 04/09/2025 13:57

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

No, never heard of it. Sorry.

midgetastic · 04/09/2025 13:52

I can’t imagine any woman I know taking seriously advise to punch someone in the balls - women just tend not to do that

Most women will leave the room rather than physically attack anyone . When faced with an attack most women won’t fight back. The risks are too great.

that aside no one should promote violence and I can’t understand why OP thinks I condone that kind of thing?

Maray1967 · 04/09/2025 13:47

Catiette · 04/09/2025 09:53

The fundamental - and, to me, fairly clear - difference between the Lineham post and those you cite in the OP is that Lineham's reference to "punching" is in reference to an illegal action and consequent potential physical threat, whereas the other threats of aggression are advocated as a response to an individual either expressing their opinions, or simply having certain opinions.

This is a huge difference.

I think being male may make this distinction more difficult to comprehend, though. As females, we're intensely conscious of our physical vulnerability to stronger males, and the statistically proven proportionate risk of violence that they present to us, so the difference in your two sets of examples is painfully plain.

Yes, exactly.

OP, I expect 1. The male person should not be in the women’s toilets in the first place. 2. He should leave when his presence is challenged. 3. Women have the right to call for assistance to ensure his removal.

If all that fails, the male person can be considered to pose a threat to the woman.

If I find a burglar in my house, where he has no right to be, I will not have a polite and friendly conversation with him about his identity.

Dominoodles · 04/09/2025 13:44

Um... anyone making violent threats against another person should be punished? Regardless of who and why?

Not sure why you think that any of us are arguing otherwise

SnoopyPajamas · 04/09/2025 13:43

A woman being advised to punch a man in the genitals, if she finds herself trapped in a woman-only space with him, is simple self-defence. The man has already violated the law by being there. He has violated her safety and dignity. He knows this, and she knows this. They also both know that even if he is wearing a dress and abusing oestrogen, he will always be stronger than her and is capable of physically overpowering her. Her only hope of getting past him is to go for a vulnerable area, like the balls.

@Christinapple is determined to frame this as "people" attacking other "people" for no reason. But in the real world, we all understand that what's being discussed is women doing the little we can to defend ourselves against men. If a man has entered a space where he knows women are vulnerable - despite knowing the law forbids it - then, yes, women are going to assess him as a threat. If that man is an autogynephile, whose fetish has become so extreme it has consumed his entire life and he must now enact it 24/7, then women will evaluate him as even more of a threat. We don't see the dress and lipstick and oestrogen man-boobs and think "Oh, a fellow women! Nothing to fear!" Quite the opposite, in fact.

You can try to frame this survival instinct as prejudice all you want, @Christinapple , but outside of TRA echo chambers, no-one is ever going to agree with you. Being wary of strange males who violate our boundaries, and being creeped out by sexual fetish, are instincts that have protected women for generations. They're not some terrible prejudice without solid foundation. You can guilt trip all you like, but this stuff is life or death for us, and you won't get very far.

So. A woman punching a creep in the bathroom? Self-defence. Glad we cleared that up. Now let's look at the examples of TRA-on-TERF violence you think are the same thing.

A man punching a woman because he doesn't like her opinion? Not self-defence.

A group of men trying to crush a woman in a crowd, because they don't like her opinion? Not self-defence.

A group of men trying to break through police protection and assault a woman speaking words they don't like? Not self-defence.

A man throwing a container of soup (which could be acid, for all she knows in the moment) over a woman, to try and frighten her out of speaking words he doesn't agree with? Not self-defence.

And finally we ask ourselves: you've brought up two men you view as dangerous in this thread. You've invited us to compare them, so I will. Graham Linehan vs 'Sarah Jane' Baker. Which man is most likely to make the leap from words to violence? Which man is the greater threat? Is it: the comedian whose most 'violent' act is throwing another man's phone on the ground in a scuffle? Or is the mentally-unstable man who has served years in prison for violently raping and murdering a woman? In the real world, we all know which of these men is in "five armed officer" territory.

What do TERFs want? Well, it would be nice if your lot would stop being so disingenuous, for a start. It would be nice if you recognised the reality of violence against women. And it would be nice if you'd stop with the pathetic false equivalencies. Graham Linehan has not "incited violence against trans people and their supporters", and you know it. Your own side has been disgraceful, and you know it. You just want to play the victim and shut down women and our hurty, hurty words, because you can't stand to hear them. We see through it and we're sick of it. Cut out the DARVO and find some integrity. That's what we want.

Don't worry. We won't hold our breath.

Screamingabdabz · 04/09/2025 13:37

“Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia”

Thats not what he said though is it? He basically said if a man is in female toilet he shouldn’t be there. And if all else fails to ‘punch them in the balls’. Ball-havers = men. Maybe he knows that males who repeatedly and deliberately make women uncomfortable by crossing safe-space boundaries only understand one language?

SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 13:36

Now known in the UK as the Theodore Upton Effect

What a legacy for him to have.

#SadTimes

PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/09/2025 13:33

CompleteGinasaur · 04/09/2025 12:36

One of the things that comes through strongly in the thread dealing specifically with Glinner's arrest is the conviction that that farcical piece of authoritarian overkill will result in a significant uptick in conversions to a gender critical viewpoint. So I'm glad this latest nonsense from Chris has made it onto Trending - thanks Chris, have you never heard of the Streisand Effect?

So I'm glad this latest nonsense from Chris has made it onto Trending - thanks Chris, have you never heard of the Streisand Effect?

Now known in the UK as the Theodore Upton Effect

akkakk · 04/09/2025 13:26

What is wanted?

Simple - for truth, honesty and reality to be the starting point...

That means:

  • everyone accepting the truth that sex is immutable and biologically ordained...
  • everyone accepting the supreme court clarification of the law
  • It means at the simpler level not having people start threads on a false basis pretending to not understand something in the hope of catching someone out...

the minute we go back to truth and honesty - most of these issues would go away... and then we would be left with the reality of the few who have genuine dysmorphia / mental health needs and we could help ensure those are met...

until then we see the continual outcome of the dishonesty and lies (all coming from the core lie that you can change sex):

  • lack of safeguarding
  • abuse of children
  • damage to people's health
  • people's lives turned upside down
  • jobs lost
  • money wasted
  • etc.
VickyEadieofThigh · 04/09/2025 13:15

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

I think - as an L person myself - I'd like you to recognise that LGB isn't the issue here - it's the T activists making threats of violence for years, often in full view of the police (who do nothing at all), which GC people object to. We'd rather like the double standards of sending FIVE armed police officers to arrest Glinner for a joke tweet (did you not notice the "punch them in the balls" part refers to the fact that these people in women's spaces are MEN?) be noted by the police and for them to react accordingly WHEN trans activists send masked mobs holding banners directing threats of violence INCLUDING murder aimed at women.

That's what we want.

Heylittlesongbird · 04/09/2025 13:09

“Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.”

This is in your opening post, so haven’t you almost answered it yourself?

At the moment people say awful things about ‘terfs’ and don’t get arrested.

Graham Linehan said something arguably far milder and did get arrested.

Therefore, the law is not currently being applied equally.

Hedgehogbrown · 04/09/2025 13:07

CassOle · 04/09/2025 09:45

People who are Gender Critical want 'gender stereotypes' to be put in the bin.

If you wish to discuss free speech Vs restricted speech and where the 'incitement of violence' line should be (or if it should be removed), that is a much bigger issue and is not restricted to people who are critical of 'gender stereotypes'. I suspect that you will find that people who are critical of 'gender stereotypes' will have different opinions on free speech/incitement to violence.

This is a good answer.

hamadryad · 04/09/2025 13:06

Graham Lineham was specifically talking about trans not LGB. That was his intention. And a trans woman should not be in a woman’s/girls bathroom in the first place. You know that, right?

user2848502016 · 04/09/2025 13:04

BananaPeels · 04/09/2025 11:13

Which tweet?

the ‘punch him in the balls’ was clearly a joke. It was literally the punchline. It is man in the women’s toilet, women don’t have balls so the joke is if all else fails ‘punch him in the balls’.

there has to be a clear difference to a direct call for violence against someone specific or in a Specific place and hyperbole and jokes. The bar should be exceedingly high before action is taken.

I didn’t read it as a joke, but whatever my opinion is that the tweet went too far and I’m entitled to that.
I have also said that GL shouldn’t have been arrested for it.
There is a difference between punching someone in the balls if they are actually attacking you, as in the case of the Queen, and punching someone just for being in a toilet (as much as I don’t want any men in the ladies ever)

DolphinOnASkateboard · 04/09/2025 13:01

"GCs complained when action was not taken against a TRA with a 'decapitate TERFs' sign, yet they ALSO complained when action was taken agaisnt a man who tweeted something about punching someone in the balls. I am very clever."

CassOle · 04/09/2025 12:55

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

Now I want to watch Miss Congeniality.

Sandra Bullock I Dont Remember Their Names Lmao GIF
MrTiddlesTheCat · 04/09/2025 12:55

I think there's a huge difference between telling angry, aggressive men to punch women in the face if they don't like their opinions and telling women and girls to punch a man in the genitals as a last resort if he's invading their safe space.

SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 12:54

Boiledbeetle · 04/09/2025 12:53

Can you repeat that? I can't hear what you're saying.

WHAT? Speak up!

Boiledbeetle · 04/09/2025 12:53

SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 11:38

Yes, it's the equivalent of saying "I can't hear what you're saying" when you've simultaneously got your fingers in your ears.

Can you repeat that? I can't hear what you're saying.

I'm confused what gender critical people want. Could someone clarify?
Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:43

I haven't told anyone off.

I'm a 57 yo woman and I've never been told to sing, where in the world does that come from?

I've also done self defence classes and never been shown punching. You must have gone to a different class than I did.

Also, defence is used when you are attacked, not just because someone is in your vicinity.

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

midgetastic · 04/09/2025 12:43

I would like no one to want to hurt anyone else
and that includes “treatment” for gender

i would like everyone to accept who they are, their whole self, and to respect who other people are.

i would no one to make assumptions on what people should do, how they should dress, what they are capable of based on their sex except where it’s material.

i would like all people treated equally. I would like the physical limitations of women to be respected in that. So all people should have decent safety gear not the same safety gear

not all GC people think the same and not all people who express concern at transgenderism are GC either - many of them are gender enforcing

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:43

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:40

But isn’t the advice to women when being threatened by a male to fo SING. And the G stands for groin. So are you telling off all those self defence experts who advocate for women to commit violence if words don’t work?

I haven't told anyone off.

I'm a 57 yo woman and I've never been told to sing, where in the world does that come from?

I've also done self defence classes and never been shown punching. You must have gone to a different class than I did.

Also, defence is used when you are attacked, not just because someone is in your vicinity.

TheStroppyFeminist · 04/09/2025 12:42

Well this isn't an exhaustive list but to answer the question in the OP, for starters:

Councils, schools and all other institutions to respect the SC ruling
Men to stay out of single sex spaces
TRAs to stop threatening women
(Surprisingly often with a "girl dick" there's no such thing)
The police to do some actual policing instead of being the thought police

Men who say they're women not to give care when same sex has been requested
Men to respect women's boundaries, including those around changing rooms etc
Everyone to acknowledge that men cannot become women, ever
Everyone to acknowledge that sex is immutable and real and matters
The law as it actually is to be applied, rather than Stonewall law
Lesbians not to be told they should be attracted to men dressed as women
Men to stay out of womens sports
End the use of forced speech
Stop expecting us to call men by female pronouns when they're clearly men
Stop manging the English language to accommodate the deranged TRA movement

BananaPeels · 04/09/2025 12:42

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:34

What's that got to do with it?

Do you feel the same about people attempting to incite violence in other circumstances? Racial violence, for example.

Has anyone actually guillotined a "TERF" as a result of those signs being held up? Is that somehow different?

I personally think the bar has to be exceedingly high for a crime to be committed. I think threats need to be specific and it can be argued that can be relied upon. I don’t like the ‘kill terfs’ signs but I personally don’t feel comfortable that they meet a bar or criminality unless they are directed to someone specific or a threat is made for people to do a specific act at a time and place. I think they certainly would make you a person of interest though. I am more libertarian though on things like this.

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:41

BananaPeels · 04/09/2025 12:36

lots of comedians use the threat of violence as a comedy tool. We know they don’t mean it literally. We watch slapstick comedies and cartoons knowing full well they aren’t there to encourage us to chase roadrunners or to kill mice. Using it as the punchline of a joke isn’t a crime. There is massive issue in the country about where the line of ‘inciting’ violence is. My bar is exceedingly high. It would have to be very specific and targeted with absolutely no room for anyone to dispute its meaning. The GL tweet doesn’t come close

Edited

Specific - "punch".

Targeted - "man in women's loo".

It's not Roadrunner setting a trap for the coyote.

But you're basically saying it's OK for G because he's a comedian but not OK for the TRAs bc they are, probably, not?

The tweet didn't actually read like a joke to me, though I know that was his response to the arrest.

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