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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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HildegardP · 05/02/2026 21:17

Datun · 05/02/2026 20:09

And what if a man did it ?

Bad Things but he's not required to, even Semenya was allowed 5n/mol. His difficulty isn't his circulating testosterone on any given day, it's his male body & male puberty.

IMO, the only hard case is CAIS, where complete androgen insenstivity means one can have an SRY gene but other than often above-average height compared to females, no male advantage, not even a male Q-angle.

My own feeling is that we need a bright line so a CAIS athlete would be unable to compete in the female category but I've never heard of an elite athlete with CAIS, perhaps that's a function of the poor early bone mineralisation that can be the result of late diagnosis?

MarieDeGournay · 05/02/2026 20:49

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

The IOC are using the World Boxing testing for the LA Olympics, so this doesn't make sense.
The Paris Olympics didn't have any testing, just what it said on your passport, hence Khelif being able to participate, but that was because they were no longer using the discredited IBA testing regime.
They've now adopted the Word Boxing one, which is very sensible and definitive, so 'genetic testing conducted by the IOC' would be 'genetic testing conducted by WB', and good luck getting past that, Imane!

JustSomeWaferThinHam · 05/02/2026 20:18

I am somewhat confused. It seems that he has effectively announced that he is a man - confirming XY chromosomes with an active SRY gene on the Y but is still maintaining the he is a woman and wants to compete against women? Is that right?

Datun · 05/02/2026 20:09

HildegardP · 05/02/2026 18:55

It's feature of French that it lacks the specificity of English when discussing this stuff, "masculinté" could translate as either masculinity or maleness, in French it's both, which has been very helpful to both DSD athletes & TIMs in fostering confusion.

(If a woman reduced her T to zero, that could have some negative effects on health & wellbeing, normal range for an adult human female is 0.3 to 1.8 nmol)

And what if a man did it ?

HildegardP · 05/02/2026 18:55

Datun · 05/02/2026 17:31

Plus it's my understanding that you can't lower your testosterone to 0. It would be lethal.

He says it's got a Y chromosome, he's got 'masculinity', and he's taken hormones to reduce his testosterone.

All of which says he's a man.

So what is the genetic testing requirement that he says he will undergo??

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

Edited

It's feature of French that it lacks the specificity of English when discussing this stuff, "masculinté" could translate as either masculinity or maleness, in French it's both, which has been very helpful to both DSD athletes & TIMs in fostering confusion.

(If a woman reduced her T to zero, that could have some negative effects on health & wellbeing, normal range for an adult human female is 0.3 to 1.8 nmol)

GCScot · 05/02/2026 18:21

Ah ok.

That wouldn't include Khalif presumably as he has admitted he has testosterone levels too high to compete as female. I'm just trying to work out exactly how he thinks he is going to get away with competing as female after genetic testing

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 18:06

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:55

But genetic testing would show Khalif to be male no matter who carries it out? Is Khalif just thinking of the IOC policy at the last Olympics of not carrying out any genetic testing at all and just accepting an athlete as female based on the sex on their passport?

However, remember there will be the exceptions of those male people with specific DSDs that CAN be included for now in female categories. Such as those without testosterone production at all and has never had testosterone production and those who process no testosterone and never have.

BiologicalRobot · 05/02/2026 17:59

“They should protect women, but they need to pay attention that while protecting women, they shouldn’t hurt other women,” she added.

How many types of women does that make? 🤔

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:55

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:49

I think he is referring to current policy. Not the expected policy for future.

But genetic testing would show Khalif to be male no matter who carries it out? Is Khalif just thinking of the IOC policy at the last Olympics of not carrying out any genetic testing at all and just accepting an athlete as female based on the sex on their passport?

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:50

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:39

What is this about Khalif being prepared to undergo genetic testing if it's carried out by the IOC? Does he think the IOC would classify an XY individual as male?

To be fair, I wouldn't put it past them given their history

That was meant to say Khalif is hoping the IOC would classify XY as female, not male 😂

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:49

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:39

What is this about Khalif being prepared to undergo genetic testing if it's carried out by the IOC? Does he think the IOC would classify an XY individual as male?

To be fair, I wouldn't put it past them given their history

I think he is referring to current policy. Not the expected policy for future.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:47

Datun · 05/02/2026 17:31

Plus it's my understanding that you can't lower your testosterone to 0. It would be lethal.

He says it's got a Y chromosome, he's got 'masculinity', and he's taken hormones to reduce his testosterone.

All of which says he's a man.

So what is the genetic testing requirement that he says he will undergo??

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

Edited

Yep.

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:44

Are there any circumstances under which a female athlete would be required to reduce her testosterone levels? My understanding is that there's a chasm of difference between the highest naturally occurring testosterone level in a healthy woman and the lowest level in a healthy male. Women's testosterone levels can only naturally approach those of a male in extreme cases such as tumours

If not, then Khalif has admitted to being male (plus the inconvenient chromosomes)

GCScot · 05/02/2026 17:39

What is this about Khalif being prepared to undergo genetic testing if it's carried out by the IOC? Does he think the IOC would classify an XY individual as male?

To be fair, I wouldn't put it past them given their history

Datun · 05/02/2026 17:31

Plus it's my understanding that you can't lower your testosterone to 0. It would be lethal.

He says it's got a Y chromosome, he's got 'masculinity', and he's taken hormones to reduce his testosterone.

All of which says he's a man.

So what is the genetic testing requirement that he says he will undergo??

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:24

I predict that he will go pro and not attend the Olympics. Or he will just retire before the Olympics.

The admission simply doesn’t seem consistent with what we know about male DSDs and him passing a sex test. Maybe he means in the current boxing regs… where he has to continue to reduce testosterone and not a future test for specific genes that would exclude him etc.

DamsonGoldfinch · 05/02/2026 17:18

He’s admitted what we have always known - that he’s a man with a DSD. Good luck with his appeal to the CAS. They told Semenya to sling his hook and will do the same to Khelif.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:13

I don't think he and his team realise what he has just admitted.

That he has XY chromosomes, an active SRY gene AND processes testosterone. Because he would not have to lower testosterone if his body was not processing it to masculinise...

It seems he is so focused on declaring he is not transgender, which I don't believe people who knew what they were talking about thought anyway, that he has admitted that it is likely to be a masculinising DSD. Likely 5ARD which was what experts suggested all along.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 17:06

Here it is:

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-imane-khelif-reveals-she-took-hormone-treatment-before-paris-olympics67501719.html#

Olympic boxing champion Imane Khelif revealed in an interview with French sports daily L'Equipe that she had undergone hormone treatments to lower her testosterone levels ahead of the 2024 Games, but reaffirmed that she is not "transgender." Khelif was embroiled in a gender row at the Paris Games where she won gold in the women's 66kg category.

"I have female hormones. And people don't know this, but I have taken hormone treatments to lower my testosterone levels for competitions," the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published on Wednesday, February 4. Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity. "Yes, and it's natural," she said, adding that she is "surrounded by doctors, a professor is monitoring me... For the Paris Games qualifying tournament, which took place in Dakar, I lowered my testosterone levels to zero".

"the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published on Wednesday, February 4. Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity."

well now...

heathspeedwell · 05/02/2026 17:01

For anyone new to reading about 46 XY 5ARD, this is from Oliver Brown in the Telegraph from Dec 24:
"One common misconception is that Caster Semenya, the 800 metres champion, whose victory would prove a trigger for Coe’s rules rethink, simply has abnormally high levels of testosterone. But a Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling in 2019 delivers a stark truth: that Semenya’s condition of 46XY 5-alpha reductase deficiency means the South African has the circulating testosterone of a man. The clue is in the letters XY. This helps illuminate the uproar over Khelif and Lin. Given that their chromosomes are said by the IBA to be XY, any female boxer facing them is left exposed to the full spectrum of performance disparities between the sexes. And when academic literature establishes that the average man punches 2.6 times harder than a woman, these mismatches are not just irresponsible, but potentially lethal.
... Khelif is also still threatening to sue Elon Musk and JK Rowling for cyber harassment. Surely, if you are intent on telling the world you are a woman, a quicker and more cost-effective strategy is to take the cheek swab that can remove any doubt."

heathspeedwell · 05/02/2026 16:58

Caster Semenya said for years that he just had 'naturally high testosterone levels' too. Lots of women assumed he was a woman with PCOS or similar. Then he changed tack and tried to claim that having internal testicles didn't make him 'less of a woman'. But he ruined any chance of people believing he was brought up as a girl by publishing a photo of himself as a teen wearing nothing but a pair of men's swimming trunks.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:57

I will keep an eye out. Apparently according to SEEN Journalism on X there is this French article too.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Boxe/Actualites/La-boxeuse-imane-khelif-repond-a-donald-trump-je-ne-suis-pas-une-trans-je-suis-une-fille/1639455

SEEN tweet says:

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/2019304036118200612?s=20

'Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity, admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024 and says she [sic] is ‘not a trans woman’.

Why does any journalist buy this. He's a man, and he's not 'accused of being trans'. He's accused of hiding the fact that he's a man (which he effectively denies in this interview). Growing up 'as a girl', being known in your village 'as a girl' - any sports reporter who is interviewing Khelif (or as here, writing up an interview from another paper) should have done their research on the fact that people with DSDs can indeed be wrongly 'assigned at birth'.

'For the next Games, if I have to take a test, I will. I have no problem with that'

None of this is about 'gender testing' - the only people introducing 'gender' are Khelif and the journalists.

'I’ve already taken this test. I contacted World Boxing, I sent them my medical records, my hormone tests, everything. But I haven’t had any response. I’m not hiding, I’m not refusing the tests'

Unless it is in this article I cannot yet find where this:

'Khelif confirmed she has the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome that indicates masculinity, admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024 and says she [sic] is ‘not a trans woman’.

has been confirmed.

La boxeuse Imane Khelif répond à Donald Trump : « Je ne suis pas une trans, je suis une fille »

Au cours d'un long entretien accordé à « L'Équipe », la boxeuse algérienne Imane Khelif, médaillée d'or aux Jeux de Paris, a répondu aux critiques du président américain Donald Trump à son encontre.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Boxe/Actualites/La-boxeuse-imane-khelif-repond-a-donald-trump-je-ne-suis-pas-une-trans-je-suis-une-fille/1639455

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 05/02/2026 16:55

I suppose Caster Semenya has been getting away with it for years - he probably just thought why not me too.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:52

Here is another article from today. There must be something that Khelif is trying to get ahead of ? An IOC announcement? That should be soon, shouldn't it?

https://www.firstpost.com/sports/imane-khelif-hormone-treatment-transgender-13976418.html

Imane Khelif admits taking hormone treatments before Paris Olympics 2024, says she is ‘not a trans woman’

“I have female hormones. And people don’t know this, but I have taken hormone treatments to lower my testosterone levels for competitions,” the 26-year-old Algerian said in the interview published Wednesday.

and

Khelif said it was for doctors and professors to “decide”, but stated: “We all have different genetics, different hormone levels. I’m not transgender. My difference is natural. This is who I am. I haven’t done anything to change the way nature made me. That’s why I’m not afraid.”

Khelif, who has not fought since the Paris Games, as World Boxing prevented her from participating in last year’s tournament in the Netherlands because she had not undergone the newly introduced chromosome test, revealed she is awaiting a French professional boxing licence.

She said for her, it was “the logical next step”, but added that did not mean she was giving up on competing in two year’s time in LA.

Helleofabore · 05/02/2026 16:47

Resurrecting this thread to update it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/02/04/sport/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-olympics-politics-intl-cmd

Speaking in Paris, Khelif said she has nothing to hide, telling CNN that she would accept genetic testing requirements – but only if conducted by the IOC.

“Of course, I would accept doing anything I’m required to do to participate in competitions,” she said, underlining that she respects the IOC and its authority.
“They should protect women, but they need to pay attention that while protecting women, they shouldn’t hurt other women,” she added.

It’s the first time Khelif has publicly addressed whether she would take such a test since last year’s move by the sport’s international amateur governing body to introduce mandatory genetic testing for all boxers over the age of 18, saying it would “ensure the safety of all participants and deliver a competitive level playing field for men and women.”

and

Khelif has never said she is a DSD athlete.

She does have naturally high testosterone levels, which she said she has been reducing under medical supervision since well before the Paris Olympics, rejecting claims that her hormones have determined her success in boxing.

“I was born like this. Of course, I have hormonal differences. But I decrease my testosterone levels based on my doctor’s recommendations,” Khelif said.

“Boxing does not rely on the level of testosterone. Boxing relies on intelligence, on experience and on discipline,” she added.

So... Khelif will do a sex test. OK. So, does that mean that for the next couple of years until the Olympics, this male athlete will trade on that and then retire before the next Olympics? He is now 26.

Olympic boxer Imane Khelif wants to fight – but only in the ring. She’s prepared to take a test to do so | CNN

Imane Khelif, the Olympic Algerian boxer who became a political target following her 2024 Paris Games win speaks exclusively to CNN about private details of her troubles and her plan to fight back.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/02/04/sport/imane-khelif-algerian-boxer-olympics-politics-intl-cmd

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