Posting upton’s old photos and name on twitter

And someone doesn't understand guilt by association & the consequences.

You think this will just apply here? You think this is the only issue this kind of thinking influences? You think that because its justified here to hell with what this normalises everywhere else?

Someone doesn't understand principles & that when you start to chip away at them at convenience everyone suffers.

you usually don't know the sexual characteristics of others in you day to day dealings.

If you are seriously suggesting that people do not know the sex of those they encounter every day you are laughably deluded. Men might just see tits and long hair, but women clock male physique, male gait, male stance and male demeanour all the time. Look up the classic photo of Eddie Izzard (pink coat, short skirt, high heels) queuing for the ladies with some actual women (trousers, anoraks).

Is there a reason you’re unable to use the quote function?

Didn't know there was one. Will use from now.😀

And someone doesn't understand guilt by association & the consequences.

You think this will just apply here? You think this is the only issue this kind of thinking influences? You think that because its justified here to hell with what this normalises everywhere else?

Someone doesn't understand principles & that when you start to chip away at them at convenience everyone suffers.

Screen shots please.

https://theweek.com/feature/1020838/jk-rowlings-transphobia-controversy-a-complete-timeline

You've all shown yourselves to be very reasonable in this discussion and not at all protesting too much over someone raising concerns of hate-speech in good faith.

I hope newcomers to this forum read this thread first and then never come back.

Someone doesn’t understand safeguarding.

‘Bloviating’

Its a wonderfully descriptive word for abusive men who hide behind feigned concern and pseudo-intellect

You consider me a TRA ? WOW

mental

anyway must resist desire to check back and ruin flounce. must do some work. you all have someone else to argue with now.

And here is a fundamental misunderstanding, of which you exhibit so very many.
Non gender conforming people have existed since dot & now have the freedom to express themselves fully & publicly.
Having arrived here only last week, you must have missed the frequent threads in which we discuss our attitudes to gender conformity, and in which many (perhaps the majority?) of us acknowledge that we ourselves do not conform. The clue is in the name: "gender critical". We are critical not just of gender identity theory but of gender norms themselves. We welcome the loosening of gender norms in modern society. We don't think women should necessarily bake cakes, or wear pretty dresses and makeup, or be sweet and agreeable. Yes, we can do those things if we want, but we don't have to. You may also have noticed that some of us are rude and aggressive, that is, we exhibit behaviour more commonly associated with men.
But here's the important bit: we draw the line at sex. Women who are rude and aggressive are still women, and men who wear dresses are still men. The difference lies in our physical bodies, not our behaviour.
Oh, but now you're going to say that if some women are aggressive, then we have no justification to eliminate only men from our single sex spaces. Wrong. I repeat, the difference lies in our physical bodies. Men are much stronger than women, they have cocks, and they have a testosterone-fuelled sexual urge that causes some (not all) of them to disregard women's boundaries. And because we don't know which of them are the wrong 'uns, we keep all of them out. Including the ones who wear dresses.
So please, if you genuinely want to engage with us in debate, take the time to find out who we are and what we believe, and why we believe it. Don't just bombard us with cut-and-paste posts cobbled together in three minutes flat, composed of insults, catch phrases, and links to material that is either irrelevant or has already been debunked multiple times.
And if you continue with your current posting style, you're just going to get abuse. Too bad.

So let me get this straight, stereotypes are wrong except when they apply to men? Got it.

Can't have it both ways.

But I appreciate your time to express this view however estranged from reality. You claim to be anti stereotypes & yet are completely oblivious to your culpability in maintaining them. You just like everyone else would distinguish males from females IN PRACTICE via stereotypical/archetypal gendered associations because you usually don't know the sexual characteristics of others in you day to day dealings. In fact you do it so fast you don't even know you are doing it. Trans people don't make the rules on social gendered categorisations the actions of larger society do. The just follow the crowd. Now no one is suggesting these societal constructed rules are 'right'. But they are what they are. No one is being prescriptivist here in saying gendered stereotypes should be used to distinguish males from females, they are being descriptivist of reality..a reality you helped create & probably won't change because inherent personality traits influenced by chromosomes, genes & hormones drive those inclinations that get categorised into separate groups via overwhelming occurrence.

There are a few men trawling the boards right now (things are hotting up and TRAs are looking really bad, so they're sweating) who know they haven't got a case, so they use a very well-known deflection tactic that goes by the technical term of "crapflooding". The idea is to divert attention from the actual issue at hand, usually with long, bloviated walls of text which amount to pretty much nothing but "no its not lol im clever than u". This works for them because trying to feel cleverer than women is in fact the only reason they're here - like they give a toss about anyone's human rights. Whatever you say, they will simply use 5000 words to say "no its not lol" and when people eventually see it for the time wasting tactic it is, they will crow that you "can't answer the points".

It's infuriating, and it's meant to be, but it's a short term strategy that literally everyone can see through and long term, it doesn't work. However much they talk and attempt to belittle and patronise because we're women and that's all that's required, long term we're seeing men in women's changing rooms and comedy writers being arrested, and you simply cannot windbag or word salad your way out of those ones.

And here is a fundamental misunderstanding, of which you exhibit so very many.
Non gender conforming people have existed since dot & now have the freedom to express themselves fully & publicly.
Having arrived here only last week, you must have missed the frequent threads in which we discuss our attitudes to gender conformity, and in which many (perhaps the majority?) of us acknowledge that we ourselves do not conform. The clue is in the name: "gender critical". We are critical not just of gender identity theory but of gender norms themselves. We welcome the loosening of gender norms in modern society. We don't think women should necessarily bake cakes, or wear pretty dresses and makeup, or be sweet and agreeable. Yes, we can do those things if we want, but we don't have to. You may also have noticed that some of us are rude and aggressive, that is, we exhibit behaviour more commonly associated with men.
But here's the important bit: we draw the line at sex. Women who are rude and aggressive are still women, and men who wear dresses are still men. The difference lies in our physical bodies, not our behaviour.
Oh, but now you're going to say that if some women are aggressive, then we have no justification to eliminate only men from our single sex spaces. Wrong. I repeat, the difference lies in our physical bodies. Men are much stronger than women, they have cocks, and they have a testosterone-fuelled sexual urge that causes some (not all) of them to disregard women's boundaries. And because we don't know which of them are the wrong 'uns, we keep all of them out. Including the ones who wear dresses.
So please, if you genuinely want to engage with us in debate, take the time to find out who we are and what we believe, and why we believe it. Don't just bombard us with cut-and-paste posts cobbled together in three minutes flat, composed of insults, catch phrases, and links to material that is either irrelevant or has already been debunked multiple times.
And if you continue with your current posting style, you're just going to get abuse. Too bad.

So let me get this straight, stereotypes are wrong except when they apply to men? Got it.

Can't have it both ways.

But I appreciate your time to express this view however estranged from reality. You claim to be anti stereotypes & yet are completely oblivious to your culpability in maintaining them. You just like everyone else would distinguish males from females IN PRACTICE via stereotypical/archetypal gendered associations because you usually don't know the sexual characteristics of others in you day to day dealings. In fact you do it so fast you don't even know you are doing it. Trans people don't make the rules on social gendered categorisations the actions of larger society do. The just follow the crowd. Now no one is suggesting these societal constructed rules are 'right'. But they are what they are. No one is being prescriptivist here in saying gendered stereotypes should be used to distinguish males from females, they are being descriptivist of reality..a reality you helped create & probably won't change because inherent personality traits influenced by chromosomes, genes & hormones drive those inclinations that get categorised into separate groups via overwhelming occurrence.

And here is a fundamental misunderstanding, of which you exhibit so very many.
Non gender conforming people have existed since dot & now have the freedom to express themselves fully & publicly.
Having arrived here only last week, you must have missed the frequent threads in which we discuss our attitudes to gender conformity, and in which many (perhaps the majority?) of us acknowledge that we ourselves do not conform. The clue is in the name: "gender critical". We are critical not just of gender identity theory but of gender norms themselves. We welcome the loosening of gender norms in modern society. We don't think women should necessarily bake cakes, or wear pretty dresses and makeup, or be sweet and agreeable. Yes, we can do those things if we want, but we don't have to. You may also have noticed that some of us are rude and aggressive, that is, we exhibit behaviour more commonly associated with men.
But here's the important bit: we draw the line at sex. Women who are rude and aggressive are still women, and men who wear dresses are still men. The difference lies in our physical bodies, not our behaviour.
Oh, but now you're going to say that if some women are aggressive, then we have no justification to eliminate only men from our single sex spaces. Wrong. I repeat, the difference lies in our physical bodies. Men are much stronger than women, they have cocks, and they have a testosterone-fuelled sexual urge that causes some (not all) of them to disregard women's boundaries. And because we don't know which of them are the wrong 'uns, we keep all of them out. Including the ones who wear dresses.
So please, if you genuinely want to engage with us in debate, take the time to find out who we are and what we believe, and why we believe it. Don't just bombard us with cut-and-paste posts cobbled together in three minutes flat, composed of insults, catch phrases, and links to material that is either irrelevant or has already been debunked multiple times.
And if you continue with your current posting style, you're just going to get abuse. Too bad.

So let me get this straight, stereotypes are wrong except when they apply to men? Got it.

Can't have it both ways.

But I appreciate your time to express this view however estranged from reality. You claim to be anti stereotypes & yet are completely oblivious to your culpability in maintaining them. You just like everyone else would distinguish males from females IN PRACTICE via stereotypical/archetypal gendered associations because you usually don't know the sexual characteristics of others in you day to day dealings. In fact you do it so fast you don't even know you are doing it. Trans people don't make the rules on social gendered categorisations the actions of larger society do. The just follow the crowd. Now no one is suggesting these societal constructed rules are 'right'. But they are what they are. No one is being prescriptivist here in saying gendered stereotypes should be used to distinguish males from females, they are being descriptivist of reality..a reality you helped create & probably won't change because inherent personality traits influenced by chromosomes, genes & hormones drive those inclinations that get categorised into separate groups via overwhelming occurrence.

And here is a fundamental misunderstanding, of which you exhibit so very many.
Non gender conforming people have existed since dot & now have the freedom to express themselves fully & publicly.
Having arrived here only last week, you must have missed the frequent threads in which we discuss our attitudes to gender conformity, and in which many (perhaps the majority?) of us acknowledge that we ourselves do not conform. The clue is in the name: "gender critical". We are critical not just of gender identity theory but of gender norms themselves. We welcome the loosening of gender norms in modern society. We don't think women should necessarily bake cakes, or wear pretty dresses and makeup, or be sweet and agreeable. Yes, we can do those things if we want, but we don't have to. You may also have noticed that some of us are rude and aggressive, that is, we exhibit behaviour more commonly associated with men.
But here's the important bit: we draw the line at sex. Women who are rude and aggressive are still women, and men who wear dresses are still men. The difference lies in our physical bodies, not our behaviour.
Oh, but now you're going to say that if some women are aggressive, then we have no justification to eliminate only men from our single sex spaces. Wrong. I repeat, the difference lies in our physical bodies. Men are much stronger than women, they have cocks, and they have a testosterone-fuelled sexual urge that causes some (not all) of them to disregard women's boundaries. And because we don't know which of them are the wrong 'uns, we keep all of them out. Including the ones who wear dresses.
So please, if you genuinely want to engage with us in debate, take the time to find out who we are and what we believe, and why we believe it. Don't just bombard us with cut-and-paste posts cobbled together in three minutes flat, composed of insults, catch phrases, and links to material that is either irrelevant or has already been debunked multiple times.
And if you continue with your current posting style, you're just going to get abuse. Too bad.

So let me get this straight, stereotypes are wrong except when they apply to men? Got it.

Can't have it both ways.

But I appreciate your time to express this view however estranged from reality. You claim to be anti stereotypes & yet are completely oblivious to your culpability in maintaining them. You just like everyone else would distinguish males from females IN PRACTICE via stereotypical/archetypal gendered associations because you usually don't know the sexual characteristics of others in you day to day dealings. In fact you do it so fast you don't even know you are doing it. Trans people don't make the rules on social gendered categorisations the actions of larger society do. The just follow the crowd. Now no one is suggesting these societal constructed rules are 'right'. But they are what they are. No one is being prescriptivist here in saying gendered stereotypes should be used to distinguish males from females, they are being descriptivist of reality..a reality you helped create & probably won't change because inherent personality traits influenced by chromosomes, genes & hormones drive those inclinations that get categorised into separate groups via overwhelming occurrence.

that is my point.

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.

Oh yes they have.

Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.

You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

"Do you think that it is a safeguarding issue that the senior doctor in the ED wanted PS arrested for failing to believe/see a male doctor (who would expect staff to bring him to a woman who asked for same sex care) as a female?"

yes!

If you peaked and hold the belief that a medical doctor employed by the NHS lacks a rudimentary understanding of human biology
a) what are you doing about it?
b) what would you suggest others do about it?

a) Writing to MPs, public bodies, talking to friends/family.
b) ditto

So if people had been posting the same stuff about someone who was not trans would you be coming here scolding us for that too? It’s not transphobia, it’s justified outrage at a man bullying women into undressing in front of him. Would you be ok if a non trans male did the same thing? If not, why not?

I don't think it's justified outrage. It's justified outrage to point out he is a man, regardless of how he wants to indentitfy. It's justified outrage to point out that NHS Fife and the Scottish Government have given him permission to act in the way he has and failed SP. But I think namecalling and posting private photos (regardless of assumptions how they got in the public domain) is abuse, and that some of the comments I saw in particular under his wedding photo crossed a line into transphobia. Because calling a trans woman a "pervert" is rooted in long-standing anti-trans stereotypes and bigotry and calling their partner an "enabler" implies that supporting a trans person is wrong or harmful, which further stigmatizes both the individual and those who care about them.

I can see the point of posting his old name, Streisand effect and all, even though personally I'm not doing it.

But sticking to the main example I've mentioned here, I think posting a wedding photo and commenting underneath "perv and enabler" is transphobic.

I again apologise for my assumption that there would be a crossover between mumsnet and twitter, that obviously has offended and I wish I'd phrased it differently. Reflecting I think it's probably because I generally keep up with issues in this debate through a mixture of twitter and this forum and so have them linked in my head. My profile on twitter is my real identity (use it for work) and I work in the arts, so if I tried to have a discussion on there I would never work again. So I suppose I decided to come here instead. Genuinely didn't think that it's offend, you can see that by my second post. Pretty naive and guilty of seeing things thru my own lens, but I do apologise.

To a certain extent this thread did give me what I was looking for which was a discussion on why people think it's ok to post photos and nasty comments because the majority have disagreed with me and say they don't think it's transphobic and they would have done the same because of "justified outrage" at Upton.

I don't agree with that.

I still don't believe he is a woman and that the state should be allowing him to use single sex spaces. or persecuting, suspending or smearing people who object. I don't think the laws of our country should be changed around his beliefs. But I do think he and his wife shouldn't be subject to abuse that centres around his trans identity, which I think pervert and enabler is. I think that crosses a line. and other comments I posted earlier in the thread.

But most of you disagree. Which is fine, happy to leave it there. I've learnt a fair bit about attitudes and appreciate everyone's time.

Thanks all.

Which one is worthy of complaint? They all seem fine to me.

"As an aside, i am currently bored and waiting for something to happen."

Really, here's something to keep you entertained about Mumsnet & hate speech from the head horses mouth…

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2022/05/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-interview

Who needs hate speech guilde lines on Mumsnet re trans if it never happens right? 😂