How to Actually be Gender Non Conforming

My understanding is that it relates to social norms.

A women wearing trousers and smoking in 1910 - gender non conforming. By 1950 not so much.

A man changing nappies, cooking and using the washing machine in the 1970s - gender non conforming. Not so much for a millennial.

A woman in 2025 who dresses in jeans, wears no make up, does her own diy - nothing to see here really.

A man wearing high heels, make up and a long wig in 1790 - gender conforming

A boy in 2025 wearing make up and a dress, who still thinks of himself as a boy - gender non conforming

A male in 2025 wearing make up and a dress and thinking of himself as a woman - gender stereotyping.

Looking back over my life, it would have been difficult for me to have been interested in fashion and sewing. 1964.
But were I 16 now it would not appear as being 'odd' or weird and I could have kept the motorbikes as well.
Social conditioning has changed for the better.

It's difficult, because no human being grows up in conditions of pure nature, and nurture starts from day one.

I suppose the best that can be done is to eliminate as many of the "nature" myths as possible by observing differences across different societies and subcultures, and in the same society through time, and see what you're left with. Though even that might be partly nurture.

The trouble is, social memories are so short. For example, apparently it used to be "pink for boys" at one time. So if nowadays, lots of little girls and few or no little boys are mad for pink, that's probably learned behaviour, not natural instinct.

Some boys here think schoolwork is girly. The Taliban think schoolwork is for boys.
In old stories like Beowulf and Morte d'Arthur, hardened warriors burst into tears and embrace without shame.

The more one knows about other times and places, the better one is armed against bullshit.

The findings were that girls / women cry more than boys / men from mid adolescence, even when alone. And as there is no biological reason for this they posited social explanations - i.e. boys are exposed to disapproval from about the age of 11.
I guess it's like all these things, how to you test what is nature and what is nurture?

So I guess I'm interpreting 'gender conforming' as 'conforming to the social gender stereotypes from the 50s of a SAHM who focuses on her looks, her cooking and her children while the working dad focuses on baseball and making money'. Or whatever variant of that stereotypes you might encounter.

So the majority of the things that women are doing every day does not conform to that stereotype.

But more importantly, it is possible to choose to deliberately confound the stereotypes and thus break them down so they no longer work. So that my kids don't grow up with the idea that mums can't do DIY or that dads can't be caring.

Did this person know many women?

Be post menopausal and grow a beard.
Personal experience.

A friend once commented that I was more like a man as I hate opera, musicals and had a hatred of tidying 🤷🏻‍♀️

Not as much as a man would be, maybe! But actually, a man crying is so unusual that I think most people would have no sensible response to it. Or maybe they'd take it as "This is a very very important issue to this man" where if it were a women crying, they'd think "This woman is just making things difficult".

Women are despised generally for being weak and hysterical, I don't think I'd see that as being mocked for crying. I think we're expected to cry.

Probably just us differing in how we understand what mocking is though.

Women are mocked for crying. Emotional, unstable, hysterical, have the pish ripped out of them.

Who is mocking you for crying? I am not sure I agree with you here.

I find this a strange one as women are relentlessly mocked for crying.

Yes, I live in Liverpool.....and the typical 'Scouse' girl look is very glamorous and full on...and many have their separate 'girls night out' on Friday, then it is couples on Saturday; the men go to the football; the women tend not to be interested; women rule the roost at home and motherhood and family are central.

I don't buy presents and cards for my husband's family, I let him take care of that, which he does. I guess that makes us both gender non-conforming 😂

There was a study posted on another thread about the way that crying is discouraged in boys and men from the age of about eleven. I'm interested in counteracting that influence on my son but I'm not sure the best way to go about that.

Gender doesn’t exist so it can be neither constructed nor deconstructed.

My friends 21yo DD can piss standing up (she's been able to do it since being a toddler) but she's female and not gender non conforming.

Beyond that I'm out of ideas!!

Surely "gender" is nothing more than stereotypes which relate to sex?

The stereotype that women get emotional as a result of hormonal fluctuations over the course of a month is incredibly closely linked to biology.

The stereotype of women staying at home whilst men go out to work is also closely linked to biology, but less so. It is obvious that the partner whose body needs to recover from pregnancy and childbirth, and who can breast feed, is the one who it makes more sense to stay home, which makes it more likely.

There is the stereotype of women doing more cooking and cleaning than their husband. To some extent this stereotype is a natural consequence of the stereotype that women are more likely to be at home due to their child.

There is the stereotypical dirty slut, and there is the stereotypical boring conservative housewife who has no interests or value other than her caring responsibilities.

Then there are the stereotypes such as short hair no make-up is right for men, and vice versa. Nothing whatsoever to do with biology.

It seems to me that (to generalize) TWs are happy to adopt the stereotypes that are ultimately meaningless (long hair and make-up and dresses). And they are happy to adopt any stereotype that relates directly to biology - pretending to have fluctuating hormones, pretending to breast feed - as that is validating. They are happy to adopt sexualized stereotypes - to play the role of a slut (in their fantasies at least), the role of an expectant hole.

I have never really seen any evidence of TW taking the stereotypical selfless caring role, where a woman's whole life goes on hold for months or years or even decades in order to make life as good as possible for a parent, partner or child. They don't seem to fall into the stereotype of running around flustered making three different meals because DC1 and DC2 like different food and DP doesn't get home til late.

TW seem to me to be very much men who simultaneously conform to many male stereotypes, whilst also conforming to many wrong-sex gender stereotypes. The stereotypes that are abandoned tend to be the difficult male stereotypes (protector and provider), and the stereotypes not adopted are the difficult female ones (like putting others first, stepping up and taking the caring role).

TW are simultaneously very much gender conforming (to two genders), whilst having aspects of male and female gender non-conformity... and every which way you look the TW is on the "winning side" - it's all about the advantages and never about the disadvantages.

I defy gender expectations every time I live my life fully and unapologetically. Why? I'm a fat woman. Instead of knowing my place at the bottom of the food chain and remaining as much out of view as possible I am opinionated, successful and active in public life. I even go swimming in a swimsuit without a frilly skirt.

I earn 10 x what my husband does - that feels quite gender non-conforming. Certainly people assume he would earn more than me, even at work. So people are surprised that I'm not wildly wealthy as they think I must have an even higher earning husband somewhere. I also remember when I had to say to nursery we weren't eligible for the free hours the manager said "your husband must earn a lot".

I have low self esteem and am constantly embarrassed by the way I look - that feels quite gender conforming (sadly).

It is interesting to see how society plays in. My son's favourite colour was pink and he liked anything bright and sparkly until he started school when he swiftly fell in line with the other boys and now wears sludgy colours. All part of life I guess.

Length of hair is probably affected by the availability of washing facilities. Relatively few homes had more than one family bathroom - bath not shower - until the 1980s. Drying long hair was a faff. Hairdryers were expensive. I and most of my classmates in the sixties had short hair because of this (and we were relatively affluent, with a separate shower room used by my father and brothers).

Agree - we can observe differences in the brain but there are more differences between individuals than between the sexes. And just because we can observe differences doesn't mean we always know exactly why those differences are there or what it means. It's just often used by society - including academia - to justify pre-existing beliefs about those differences.

My daughter loves maths and every year at school I need to highlight it to them and tell them to encourage and challenge her on it, precisely because of that additional support in enjoying and being good at something that's not really seen as for girls. It's still not seen as a 'girl' thing (never mind it not being a 'cool' thing - a double dunt for little girls who like it).

Good point also about taking the lead and public performing - even just advocating for myself is hard. Part of that is personality but how much of that personality is down to 'seen and not heard' and girls being discouraged from speaking up for themselves? People really hate when women advocate for themselves in any way.

I’m not at all convinced that the particular difference you’re describing is innate. There may be an observable effect due to being raised in a still-gendered environment with expectations around how girls and boys should behave - neuroplasticity is real. Girls in girls schools are freed (to some extent) from that ‘nurture’.
I think what you’ve done is expose two different gender constraints which can reinforce each other. The idea women aren’t good at science and maths - it should be outdated but sadly persists. And another, which is that girls are supposed to defer to other peoples opinions more than boys are.