Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

I don't really understand how this would work. Does either Israel or Palestine favour a One state? You think Israel should absorb Palestine entirely?

I think this is a social media thing. I think in the real world (well my real world) - teacher, Scotland, middle class but friends from all over. Age 50. Most people I know are gender critical (an age thing) to various degrees and anti current Israel. Not anti semitic but anti the onslaught in Gaza.

How about we start with 2 state solution and Palestine turns itself into a functioning secular democracy with equal human rights for men and women, gay people and different religions. Then if they're successful there can be a merger.

Yes exactly. Marx thought the nuclear family was an economic unit that reinforced class divisions and the perpetuation of private property via inheritance, so it was something to be broken up/discouraged.

I've certainly never held that opinion. I used to believe in the Two State Solution. But I've realised it is just a chimera. Pious platitudes mouthed by Western governments even as Israeli land grabbing renders it null and void. So , One State it is . That can only work as a unitary , secular state with no privileged groups or castes. The kind of state Israel's apologists pretend has existed since 1948 in fact. Go for it.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas?

@AliasGrace47 I’m thinking here of far-left ideas about breaking up family groups (Khmer Rouge et al) which I think filter down to more “everyday” left thinking about communal living, everyone being equal and the family unit not being compatible with that.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas?

@AliasGrace47 I’m thinking here of far-left ideas about breaking up family groups (Khmer Rouge et al) which I think filter down to more “everyday” left thinking about communal living, everyone being equal and the family unit not being compatible with that.

Yes, me too. This is a really fascinating thread. I’m so impressed it has been so little derailed and (mostly) so courteous. I really do appreciate this board.

For some on the left I think this is quite simple - so simple it's hard to believe it's real - it's the result of the ideology they've been taught which says that "whiteness" is a material force of evil, and anti-whiteness is always good.

I know it's hard to imagine real people think that way, but it's straight out of Robin DiAngelo and her ilk, and what a lot of Americans in particular are being taught at university. Whiteness is always racist, all white people are racist and institution sin western society.

So most Jews are white, in particular in the US, and most Muslims are darker skinned, so they are the oppressed.

What is the main point you are trying to make @Krakinou because I can't see it? It seems that you have mixed up:
Gender Critical
Religious beliefs
Feminism
And politics.
You claim that it is logical to be atheist if one is a feminist. Why? Why cannot an ordained woman be a feminist? Or why can't a feminist lead a Christian life and be GC at the same time. We might vote differently if we move from England to Scotland but still have the same opinions.
Muslim attitudes and teaching about women are a separate topic and are very dependent on location.
Trying to bundle all your ideas to form a common philosophy that ties them with logic will soon have you faced with having to accommodate opposing ideas within one brain. IMHO.

These problems have not stayed within the black community. Look at Tom Wolfe's famous Radical Chic article about celebrities of the 70s who supported the Black Panthers. Look at the white Democrats who supported the things in my above post.

While I mostly agree, I would point out that there has always been a segment of the US black community which responded to anti-black racism with anti-white racism. This has been constant since Malcolm X & the Nation of Islam & probs before that.

See John mcWhorter's 2000 book Losing The Race, where he mentions loads of 1990s examples of prejudice being fought w prejudice, an egregious one being the black community's defence of OJ Simpson.

Or take the fact that Clinton had to rebuke extremist black elements back in 1992, including not only a rapper who afterwards wrote for the New Yorker, but Jesse Jackson & many other black Democrats.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment

Take the Jeremiah Wright controversy, a pastor who strongly influenced Obama, who had the sense the ignore his extremist views.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright_controversy

These problems are more intense now in the US certainly, but they are by no means new. The Fresh Prince era was not as united as is often implied now.

What a strange question - I guess it’s just the circles you move in

Very interesting, I'd agree with all.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas? To my left-centrist mind, community is key to left-wing. This doesn't mean it should overwelm individual choice, but it's

Did you mean that Jewish people are perceived by some of the left to look out for their own community before others? Which ofc has been an anti-semitic trope used by both left and right.

I suppose one problem is that our fashionable thinkers hate America but seem to import every cranky fad from American campus politics.

I'm not saying Britain has ever done multiculturalism perfectly, but it's done it quite well and doesn't have the American pathologies over race. Which are currently in a very weird place. I think most of us grew up in an era when the American centre ground - everyone from liberal Republicans through all mainstream Democrats to the Communist Party - subscribed to the Martin Luther King idea of the colour blind future. Nowadays you've got Donald Trump (!) going to Detroit to talk about urban regeneration and black jobs, while the campus left is well on its way to adopting a wokified version of segregation and 1920s race science.

Which will get filtered into the UK by overeducated nitwits who think all the best ideas come from California and don't appreciate that we are a different country. Those BLM protesters in London a few years ago chanting "hands up, don't shoot" at unarmed British coppers? That's the future of the UK activist world. You see them now on Reddit saying "y'all" and talking about "bathroom bills".

It's interesting how, in the generation since 9/11, Islam has become "left coded" and Judaism "right coded", and this has a lot more to do with white left fashions than anything inherent to those communities.

I wasn't supporting intersectional feminism - which tends to be pro-gender ideology. I mean I support all women, even those who don't want to be supported.

Yeah @SidewaysOtteri feel the same way. I think many of us do. But now “the left” demonises us.

I do think the left/right political dichotomy is probably over now. It’s all become meaningless. And all this shouting & demonising each other is so awful - not just personally, but I do think the social structure of the uk (and no doubt elsewhere) is being undermined & eroded. I’m an immigrant & I chose to live in England. I think it’s a fantastic country. And it’s diversity, tolerance & also English pride, comedy & culture were so attractive I was so happy I could live here. It feels much less tolerant & accepting now. The melting pot seems to be self separating, I’m worried it’s all coming undone.

I guess what we are seeing now is the impact of & changes as a result of the internet & smart phones. Our kids are going to have a lot to navigate in a swiftly changing world.

White guilt and cultural relativism? Ridiculous concepts to my mind but it seems prevalent on the political/modern left - see also the failure to address the grooming gangs. Where it comes from seems to stem from a mixture of Islam being seen as a minority, not being "colonial" (and possibly 'making up' for the Crusades, although you'd like to think that we're all a bit over that by now) and a promotion of the 'multiculturalism is good' mantra.

On a 'no sense' theme, I struggled to get my head around why the political/modern left is anti-semitic. After all, what demographic could possibly have been more demonised and oppressed throughout history than Jews?

Except that Jews are - apparently - seen as capitalist (the stereotype/trope of the rich Jewish banker) and their strong community connections don't fall in with left wing ideals. Plus they're deemed to be white so all of this means they are obviously terrible oppressors who are beyond the political pale

I would say I'm left wing - I believe in a society that supports the members who need more help. I believe that good housing, education and healthcare should be free to all. I believe it should be paid for by those who are able to, and those who are able to pay more should contribute more. I believe that everyone has the right to a good standard of living. But I also believe in people taking responsibility for themselves as far as possible, and I do not believe in the left wing ideas of everyone being some kind of victim who needs to be coddled by the state. And I absolutely do not believe in the sort of nonsense that goes on these days with women's rights thrown under the bus, Palestine Action, purity spirals, cancellation, Extinction Rebellion, anti-semitism and all the while knee-deep in keffiyehs and excusing the most appalling behaviour if it comes from the 'right' people'. Where the fuck did this all come from?

As the saying goes I didn't leave the left, the left left me.

And it’s not just about making people religious, but making states/government religious too.

Islam would take the entire planet if it could. They'd be happy with everybody becoming a muslim.

In fact, they don't call people convert, they call them reverts. Because they believe that everybody's muslim when they re born, and they just come back to it.

It's obscene wickedness.

Islam is 100% a colonising religion though.

it surprises me so many “anti-colonialism” types are pro Islam.

it makes no sense.

Do anti Zionists think that Israel should cease to exist, can anyone elucidate?

Based on the actions of the Soviet Union and China, I don’t see anything inherently anti-colonialist about left wing politics. Of course maybe you’re referring to a fantasy utopian left-wing government as opposed to the real implementations we’ve seen in practice.

I agree @Mollyollydolly

i actually think this is the first time I’ve even posted anything anywhere about how I feel on this conflict. So yes, much credit to this forum.

This is why I love this forum. Such a great thread. Probably the most intelligent thing I've read about this conflict. My conclusion .. I don't know the answer, what I do know is that anyone who thinks it's simple, good v evil, is delusional. What's the solution? I have no idea.