Transwoman accused of sexual assault after concealing male genitalia on date

I agree. It's the wrong comparator. If I tried to pass myself off as a cis man that would be illegal. If I was pretending to be a transwomen with a penis whilst actually using a strap-on that would also be illegal.

It's a valid question at what point someone should disclose their sex when instigating sex.

I wouldn't consider kissing someone without them disclosing to be illegal. But once people's genitals are coming into play it needs to be disclosed, along with other relevant considerations like STI protection/contraception

There's also a question about what lies invalidate consent / inevitable what if they didn't say they were Jewish comparisons. Some lies are far enough removed from sex to not invalidate it unless it was clearly stated, i.e. claiming to be wealthy when dating.

But someone's sex is central to sex. Whether that's vaginal sex, oral sex, anal sex any sort of sexual activity. Sex is central to sex.

@5128gap There's always the option of keeping your opinions to yourself unless expressly asked for them though, and just quietly get on with dating any woman you like who reciprocates.

First of all, how does a man persuade a woman to opt for a natural appearance without proposing that idea to her in the first place?

Second, the timing doesn't matter, because even if a man is specifically asked for his opinions, and he says he doesn't like the Kardashian look, he's still going to receive a lot of abuse for being judgemental of women. If such a question ever came in my direction, I would simply decline to answer.

Third, as I have said already, men's opinions are irrelevant. Women have been overwhelmingly clear that the manner in which they style themselves has nothing to do with men. So why are we even talking about this in the first place, if we have already established that men's preferences for women are irrelevant?

I guess any man who goes around giving his unsolicited opinion as to how he prefers women to present is never going to be the most popular guy in a room full of women. There's always the option of keeping your opinions to yourself unless expressly asked for them though, and just quietly get on with dating any woman you like who reciprocates.

@5128gap I think PPs point is that potential male victims of sexual assault by other men could protect themselves by deselecting women who wear a lot of make up and have lip fillers from their dating pool.

Yes, I understood that point.

My point was that men who express a preference for women who don't wear a makeup, don't have lip fillers, don't have a tan, etc. generally receive a lot of abuse and are labelled as sexist. So it's not an option.

I know that that played a huge part as it always does.

He seems to be obsessed with her, and with his conviction that he is much more attractive than she is.

People don't have an entitlement to sex with anyone.

That's only a social convention though. Not one I would like to lose.

The people who believe trans people have the right to rape by deception and that anyone who objects is a terrible bigot make me sick. This is another version of the age old "men are entitled to sex and women exist to give it to them" horror.

People don't have an entitlement to sex with anyone. It is never ok to lie and deceive and coerce and pressure people into sex. Being a man who pretends he is a woman doesn't make lying and deceiving and coercing someone into sex ok. If you are someone like Ciara, you have a serious mental disorder; I can feel sorry for you as I would anyone else with a serious mental disorder that has a significant impact on your life, but I'm not going to pretend that your serious mental disorder gives you the right to assault people.

India Willoughby is so fucking male that it makes me laugh. Everything about his persona screams man. The way he can't abide JKR not shutting up and kowtowing to him is so male. The dressing like a young person on a night out as a 60 something is so male. The "but you all fancy ME more don't you not her" polls are so male. The aggression and tantrums are so, so male.

The Police and the CPS did not dismiss the victim as you have done, hence it proceeding to trial.

Well it was a man ...

Thinking is not Windy’s strong point.

Hence the Windy poll not going his way either.

Well, it did happen. The Jury, unlike you, did believe the victim and did not blame him for the assault perpetrated upon him hence they found the offender guilty.

The Police and the CPS did not dismiss the victim as you have done, hence it proceeding to trial.

The offender has been convicted of this crime, will be setenced at a later date but is to be immediately placed on the Sex Offender Register.

Your attempts to justify with a screed of bizzare reasons to excuse what the offender has been found guilty of is offensive.

Your imagination, or lack of, is irrelevant the fact is the victim did not consent.

He.

Luckily it doesn't seem like this man has done anything other than lip filler and eyelashes. Hopefully he can clean up his behaviour and become capable of forming healthy relationships as a gay man.

Exactly!

In IW’s very confused version of the world, ‘woman’ and ‘female’ reflect identity rather than material reality, and so ‘deception’ isn’t a phenomenon that can arise - people are who they say they are and that’s that. This is why he is up in arms that cis people aren’t required to explicitly confirm who they are but trans people are.

For the majority of people, whose brains aren’t addled by gender ideology, the category error IW makes is as baffling as stating ‘the theory of evolution is 3 meters long’.

I wonder how non disclosure of sex by a 'cis' person would play out in court. "This woman had sex with my client while presenting as a woman, and made statements intended to lead my client to believe she was a woman. She failed to disclose to my client that she was in fact a woman. This led to my client consenting to sex with a person he took to be a woman, who had led him to believe she was a woman, and who he later discovered was actually was a woman".

Yes. It's not a lack of making a declaration that's the problem, its actively taking steps to conceal sex or deceive a partner.

There are many factors that can affect this - online dating, filtered/altered photos, capacity wrt drugs/drink, vulnerabilities (maybe age, maybe perceptual), and the lengths to which some people go are extraordinary. I'm not just talking about extreme body modification surgery, but some of the sex by deception cases in the past have involved very elaborate set ups, including blindfolds and meeting only at night, controlling the environment, disguising voice, etc.

People also declare their sex on dating apps by selecting the appropriate category and not the category they want to represent them.

We declare our sex by not pretending to be the opposite sex.

Just in case anyone was in doubt that India has the ethics of an alley cat, he pops up to remind us.

India Willoughby suggests that the ruling provides clear evidence of discrimination against trans people. His point being that ‘cis’ people are not forced to disclose their sex, only trans people are.

This exemplifies how gender identity can consume people to the extent that it impedes their capacity to process wider information. His capacity to overlook sexual orientation as the issue at hand is a big red flag.

When you take yourself out of mainstream
sexual orientation with body mods, you’re going to see an impact on the size of your dating pool. That’s for you to resolve, not everyone else to comply.

I know nothing about you, but I hear your last sentence in the voice of Adrian Dunbar! 😅

I’m waiting for something about Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey!

Sex is not a human right

Choosing to not have sex with someone is a human right.

If you chose to be deceptive in order to have sex with someone, you are denying them their human rights and engaging in abuse of that person.

It doesn't matter why someone doesn't want to have sex with you, you are not entitled to a sexual relationship. No-one is. Just because a person chooses to be transgender, does not make them more entitled to have sex than any one else.

Just to add that age makes no difference to these truths- the PP suggested that young people are much more open to having sex with someone without knowing their sex. This is absolute nonsense- the young people I know are every bit as clear about their sexual orientation as my generation and would not accept that anyone had the right to deceive them.