Germany "Neo-Nazi changes gender to serve in women’s prison"

So, what is your solution?

How does the MoJ arbitrate who should and should not be included in those transgender prison statistics when the law allows all those male people who have been included in the statistics to declare that they are transgender?

Is transphobic to state that any male person with a transgender identity is not transgender. Surely you understand this

Now you are resorting to strawman arguments and pointing a transphobia finger. Because I'm saying someone who claims a trans identity when faced with prison is probably making it up?

What next, I'm racist and homophobic? 😂

This thread is about a German prisoner.

Are we also supposed to assume that a male person with a transgender identity with a GRC is less likely to commit a sex crime than one without a GRC?

Based on what evidence?

If as agreed in this thread, some trans prisoners are clearly opportunists then the prison stats are unreliable. That doesn't require me to have a "tru trans" criteria: it is just logic and statistics.

It is transphobic to state that any male person with a transgender identity is not transgender. Surely you understand this.

You, personally, are not the arbitrator of who is and isn’t a male person with a transgender identity. Neither am I. And there is no one in the UK who can arbitrate this.

You also seem to forget that those stats don’t include the male people we already know are in the UK prisons with GRCs (yet we also don’t know if they are there with any sex offences in their history or if that are there with those offences because the MoJ will not release this information). The number could be higher than what we know.

The entire point is that the numbers are also nothing like those of female people’s sex and violent prisoner numbers.

Also, what is the point of a male person declaring that they are female if they don’t get put into a female prison? The numbers of male sex offenders in the female prison are only a few still. Not anywhere near the numbers of male people with transgender identities in those statistics.

Please do tell me what benefit those male people get if they have declared that they are female again, if they are not in the female estate now? Why would they continue to identify as female if they are not in female estate if they were not genuinely male people with transgender identities?

And why would you assume that all long term male people with transgender identities have GRCs. That is a fairly prejudiced assumption you have just made there.

Whatever you do, UK, don't fall into the trap of passing self ID laws. Or there won't be any Isla Bryson moments. It will be too late

I agree, however there's been similar problems in UK prisons already.

I was reading the Women who wouldn't wheesht, seeing as it was banned, and a chapter by a prison governor said there were blokes wandering around even admitting it.

Hence my point about UK prison statistics being unreliable, once you've conceded there are obviously fakers as this thread has.

For those saying we can't tell the difference - really? You can't tell the difference between a man who has turned up on his court date in a dress and a transwoman who has changed their name 20 years ago to female, has medically transitioned and has a GRC?

So what is the criteria that you think equals 'tru trans'?

For those saying we can't tell the difference - really? You can't tell the difference between a man who has turned up on his court date in a dress and a transwoman who has changed their name 20 years ago to female, has medically transitioned and has a GRC?

Germany has self ID. There is LITERALLY no way to tell. And if you misgender someone the maximum fine is EUR 10,000

So whatever you do, UK, don't fall into the trap of passing self ID laws. Or there won't be any Isla Bryson moments. It will be too late.

I wonder what the police description of the fugitive says? Are they looking for a man, a woman or a man half-arsedly pretending to be a woman? I'd hate to see women with florid handlebar moustaches misgendered by Interpol.

Prisoner statistics are clear that this group of male people do not have the same level of risk or lower risk of committing sex or violent crime as female people.

That's my point I was rejecting. These statistics are evidently not "clear", they are likely overestimates.

As argued in the thread idiot prison authorities (including as happens in the UK) and no doubt some other idiots think any man who turns up in prison and claims there and then to be female - despite having no other evidence - is telling the truth. Of course not.

Thus there will be a number of these rather obvious male fakers in the stats of transwomen in prison and your "clear" stats are clearly inaccurate.

Thus the statistics are likely to overestimate the dangers of trans in the wider community - i.e. I've seen plenty of times these flawed statistics used to show the risk to women in toilets, changing rooms etc in other threads on here.

For those who are saying they are men and shouldn't be in women's prisons even if hypothetically they posed no risk - fine that's a logical argument.

For those saying we can't tell the difference - really? You can't tell the difference between a man who has turned up on his court date in a dress and a transwoman who has changed their name 20 years ago to female, has medically transitioned and has a GRC?

They're all men, mate.

That's how we make it make sense.

By the way, there is no doubt at all that male people with transgender identities are more dangerous than ‘cis’ women**

The prisoner statistics are clear that this group of male people do not have the same level of risk or lower risk of committing sex or violent crime as female people.

** cis women is a meaningless term because it also include male people
with differences of sex development such as Caster Semenya. Cis women does not mean just female people.

The issue is that they are all just men and none of them should be in women’s prisons.

Well it's one or the other isn't it?

Either 'transwomen' do have a much higher rate of offending, in which case why the hell is anyone arguing they should be put in women's prisons?

OR

Men are taking advantage of the loop hole to get placed in women's prisons. Though we were told this would never happen, remember? In which case, why are we allowing men to 'identify' into women's spaces with such ease?

Which is it do you think?

that's not the "gotcha" you think it is. We all say that men are dangerous (as a class) to women (as a class)

And we also say that you can't tell the difference between a man in a dress who says he is a woman, and a man in a dress pretending to be trans.

Both things can be true

yeah, the German short hand for the political parties is ok, until you have SPD, Die Linke and, say, die Grünen. Then you have red red green. :)
Or when all the others are in there smehow and it's a Jamaica coalition

The truth is that there is no way to tell whether someone is faking being transgender or not. There are no biological or neurological markers to use to categorise all people with transgender identities. The only thing that is a commonality is the group’s philosophical belief in their identity which is a belief that doesn’t reflect material reality.

Therefore, society has been told that it must accept any person who says they are transgender as being transgender.

So, the prisoner statistics are treated as all legitimate transgender people. And this neo nazi has to be treated as being legitimately transgender.

Until a test is found, if ever, this is the way it has to be.

This isn't exactly a hot take. According to trans activists any man who says he is a woman, is a woman and entitled to be in women's single sex spaces. Suggesting otherwise leads to accusations of bigotry and transphobia. So called prison onset gender dysphoria has been discussed on these threads many times. Lacking a foolproof test for an unverifiable feeling that a man claims, all we have to go by are the stats. These stats show that transwomen in prison in the UK are far more likely to be sex offenders than your bog standard male offender. Are they genuinely trans (whatever that means) or, in the words of Humza Yusaf 'at it'? No-one can reliably say and you're a transphobic, homophobic and probably racist bigot for even thinking about it. According to Nicola Sturgeon you are anyway.

Just 'plopping' the thought here that there's an inconsistency on this forum shown by this thread. Think about it.

On the one hand you are here pointing out men suddenly claim to be women to get into a women's prison. I.e. they are opportunists.

Sure that seems plausible. Many criminal men would no doubt love or at least prefer to be in a women's prison. Power, control, heterosexual sex in the showers etc.

On the other hand, I see statistics about transwomen in prisons quoted as evidence that they are more dangerous than cis women.

Putting these together you are arguing an unknown number of criminal men fake being trans and that these prison statistics are still accurate representation of the general trans population risk.

Make it make sense. Anyway, as you were...

I love the 'traffic-light coalition'! it's a great usage.

was moseying around X today and found this (autotranslated by X but seems ok)

NB: the "let women speak" mentioned is the German initiative Lasst Frauen Sprechen. To avoid confusion

His views are irrelevant. The German law is ridiculous. No man should be in a women's prison. It doesn't matter if he's had surgery or is the loveliest man in the world he doesn't belong there.

I'm torn between feeling a bit disappointed that Germany's self-ID laws aren't being exposed for the absolute farce that they are, and relief for the female prisoners who would have been locked up with a male Nazi.

It's not a surprise that his core concern wasn't making a feminist ally statement about males in women's prisons tho.

Another legal issue is that Germany also has Freedom-of-Speech laws which have to be balanced with other laws.
Anything people say and someone complains about thus have to be checked for context, it is not clear cut right away.
A journalist of a right-wing / extremely conservative media portal was taken to court by saying Liebich was a man in a tweet.
This went to a court in Berlin which said that, yes, the sentence affected Liebich negatively, but the context was a current political debate and the posting was an opinion, not presented as objective fact.
Thus Liebich lost this court case.
The legal publishing house Beck has a background article:
https://rsw.beck.de/aktuell/daily/meldung/detail/lg-berlin-ii-2O35725eV-reichelt-nius-liebich-geschlecht-trans-meinung