some parallels

I don't understand why you think the fact that some people have gone to extreme lengths to disguise themselves as a member of the opposite sex is a problem for the rest of society to resolve.

In my opinion the first point that should be made by medical professionals in any kind of "gender affirming care" is that by rejecting your sex you risk finding yourself in a sort of no man's land where you do not belong in either spaces for your own or the opposite sex, and this is something you need to take personal responsibility for. If you can't, work harder to accept the sex you are.

On that point, last year I got into an argument with some American women about single sex spaces, in which I said I found it unacceptable that vulnerable female prisoners had been forced to share prison accommodation with trans identifying males who have been convicted of rape.

One of the women made a comment along the lines of, "People get raped and assaulted in prison every day, often by prison guards. Are we supposed to believe that the UK is so good at dealing with prison violence that excluding trans women from female prisoners is going to have an impact on safety?"

To which my response was, "Given that you live in a country where women can't get safe and legal abortions and don't get paid maternity leave and where children are at risk of being shot at elementary school, why is it so hard to believe that the UK might be better than the US at dealing with prison violence? I actually can't think of a single thing the UK isn't better at."

“Where debate is careful and takes complexity into account.”

No. From seeing this thread and your last thread, I consider this a direct lie.

You are not interested in debate - careful or not. You are only interested in showing how little you understand the topic you are posting about and demonising people who have sought the knowledge you lack and come
up with different views because of the depth of knowledge they have.

But crack on showing all those new eyes on this thread how little you understand.

and scream shit about 'cutting off a man's penis and putting it in my pocket'

No screaming involved

ETA:

Cock and balls not just penis

and it was "shoved In her pocket" not "putting it In my pocket".

"In fact the only way a woman could ever have male sex organs is if they were literally walking around with an actual man's cock and balls cut off the man and shoved in her pocket."

I think @Manfreglory is actually trying to work through his views and is, in his own rude and dismissive way, actually asking the women (and men) of MN to help him do this, 'cos he knows he would get f-all help in any other online forum.

Anyone who posts, as he has done, You put all trans people together; I suspect there might be different rights of access and usage but I know I'm setting myself up for a virtual bloodbath here knows that the virtual bloodbath is waiting for him on reddit et al.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or does it come naturally?

It's not a "British nationalist T-shirt".

The point being made is that things which are a problem in other countries are only relevant to UK policy making if they are actually a problem in the UK.

Is there any evidence that trans identifying people are at risk using the correct toilets for their own biological sex in the UK? I assume not, otherwise trans activists would post it, instead of dubious links to dodgy US news sites about things that have allegedly happened in Alabama or North Dakota.

Manfr, I know you've no idea what I'm saying.

I increasingly believe you're either trolling, or are in some way frightened of even trying to understand, presumably because of what that may force you to realise about yourself - your values and/or your capacity to follow the quality of argument on this site.

My last theory is that you're actually two posters, probably teenaged or very young (in every sense) adults, team-tagging - you recurrently show a potential for rational thought that than invariably subsides into childish insult and point-scoring.

Regardless, the effect of your posts is consistently to highlight your own lack of conviction and inadequacy. This lets us make our arguments for the lurkers and posterity as convincingly as ever, while also enjoying the satisfaction of so doing.

What you get from this is a source of absolute mystification to me.

Not a cockroach

I'm seeing a few people per week who appear they could be trans (many more where you can't tell)

Ah, the old 'can't tell but can count' mutual exclusion conundrum

Do your seriously have a daughter, Manfr? I simply can't understand how you can be so blasé - so childish - when this discussion concerns her safeguarding. You read post after post about the risk posed by males, including transwomen, to females in physical spaces... and you come back with this supremely witty riposte about an online space? You're just not taking this seriously. That attitude should shame you, frankly, whether or not you're a father.

Not a cockroach but I suppose it's that complicated biology causing problems again.

So you know, then, that the answer is that trans men who are still recognisably female looking (i.e. most of them) are perfectly welcome in women's spaces, but that trans men who have succeeded in altering their appearance to the extent that other women cannot tell they are female should not use them. Which changes nothing for those trans men, who are already not using women's spaces.

Because you're one to be talking about intellectual integrity.

I take that back. Going by the last 2 posts 🙄

I suppose it's not impossible.

What about it?

You never know they may be reading Helen Joyce or Kathleen Stock right now and gaining a new understanding of this issue.