Sturgeon accuses JK of toxic trans debate

Oh I don't know about this! I will look it up and have a think and get back to you.

And Im getting a more in depth understanding of why my post prompted certain reactions.

Yeah just move on from it. If anyone still wants to give you flak over it just let the flak slide. Back and forthing just keeps it going on life support.

This forum sees a lot of bad faith interlopers who like to make a dramatic entrace, castigate everyone from the moral highground, then flounce off all excited having stuck it to the TERFs. It does makes us sensitive to certain methods and patterns they always use. You did match one of the patterns initially. I don't believe you are one of these, I think you are here in good faith.

I am curious if you'd care to have a crack at this question please?
What did you think of Elaine Miller's merkin protest in Holyrood?

That Reddit thread is wild. Even the people who are trying to be relatively sensible still have to show pronoun respect to convicted rapists.

With the added advantage of paying less tax if no longer resident in Scotland

Since there is obfuscation at best, and a downright refusal as standard, how the fuck are we to know any other names?

Added to which Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria seems to be A Thing...

I had a little read of that, it’s very much a mixed bag of it’s an extra punishment for trans individuals and some sensible folk saying you shouldn’t lock up attackers with their preferred victims.

Should there be a differentiation between those who discover they are trans after being accused of sexual crimes type stuff. The “at it” gender I assume. I wonder what the flag will look like.

Probably the answer is to have trans wings in prisons. Congruent with sex of course.

A bit like when you are so passionate about Scottish Independence you are thinking of moving to London, to get some peace from Scots?

When one of self ID’s biggest supporters is suggesting that it’s a privilege that can be taken away as a punishment for “bad” trans people, it seems that maybe she never believed in it after all.

Thank you to the posters who have appreciated my apology. I can hardly insult jkr for something while doing something effectively similar and I get why it would get people's backs up. Like I say, I genuinely have reflected on that. I am happy to insult myself too and say I was a dick in my initial comment because I was. I took a cheap shot while accusing her of taking a cheap shot which is not cool. I've held my hands up repeatedly so I'm not sure what else I can do. Probably let it go is the answer! I hope the fact that I am returning to explain myself lets you know that I am genuinely not trying to be offensive or rude and I thank everyone who has seen that.

Off the top of my head I can't but a quick google wouldn't take long.
That butcher guy who abducted and sexually abused a schoolgirl for a start.

I'm wondering if the redditor's point is we have to learn the names so we can recall them on demand? Because if we are allowed to look things up there's literally hundreds of them. I mean even the home office's own figures show that the rate of sex offenses among male prisoners claimning to be women is higher than men prisoners.

Ask the people who keep bringing up Isola Bryson if they can name any other trans prisoners who were convicted of sex offences other than doing sex work.
They can't. So until proven otherwise, I am going to suggest that she is the only one, and therefore trans women are the demographic least likely to do this sort of thing.

I guess this is what true belief looks like.

Can I do a little edit here? This bothers me:

Either “Women who want to chide women for criticising politicians” or “people who want to chide people for criticising politicians”.
The way you have written it places the emphasis on ‘women’ - intentionally, I know - but it sounds exclusive.

And as per previous post, I don’t really care about Sturgeon per se. I do think criticism should be political and not personal, though. I have the confidence of my own mind and opinions and simply because, say, Influential Person A believes something, doesn’t mean I should. I see that too often here.

Reddit discussion of Sturgeon's denial of Bryson's womanhood.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1mo4y1a/sturgeon_rapists_probably_forfeit_right_to_choose/

I said nothing like this at all. In my comment, I was making a comparison of the different treatment of three groups: Sturgeon, GoFaster, and posters that have different opinions to the majority. I was not giving a socio-political opinion on Sturgeon herself apart from what I’d read in this thread, and that was a thorough personal savaging. I recognise JKR is your heroine and anyone she opposes, you must also oppose, like drones, though.

I love a good apology ❤️ Obviously typed conversations lack the nuance of face to face. Can't hear tone of voice or see facial expressions. So phrases you may think are very milquetoast can hit wrong. It's happened to me. I don't have a problem if you didn't like JKRs shirt. You're entirely entitled to your opinion.

I think our side is stronger for diversity of opinion.

I'm not just cute, I'm a fucking Saint 😇

I am vaguely reminded of the sketch (from the 80s) in Ben Eltons "Man from Auntie" where Mrs Thatchers dogmatism was illustrated by her running up a down escalator insisting that it was "going the wrong way"

Possibly portrayed by Steve Nallon, which adds a whole extra dimension of deliciousness in the fact it's what popped into mind.

I am also reminded of a fairly recent clip from the US where a losing candidate was guffing that although the other side "gotten more votes" that didn't mean they should have won because "everybody agrees with me".

She’s farting out one of the regular Omnicause talking points, I’m surprised she hasn’t thrown in “Free, Free Palestine!!!” during her many interviews too so everyone knows she one of the righteous…

More claims from the book disputed. Did she not think people who were involved and unlike AS still alive, would not read her memoir and speak up?
https://www.thetimes.com/article/d7f5d9b3-845e-40a5-b350-c60f80560969?shareToken=5ae5003982facbc5301afd10a61a3dae

Its fairly common for a launch tbf.

She launched two days early though, which I think suggests pre-orders were lower than expected and shes really hammering in the interviews.

Ah, I see what happened - somebody else called VoulezVous took up the line Gofaster had apologised for, and a couple of posters doubted the sincerity of Gofaster's apology.
That extended it for a bit, but mostly in response to VoulezVous.

I still say thank you for Gofaster's apology, which I still take at face value and I always salute posters who say - sorry I got that wrong/got a bit snippy/lost the head/etc.
because it's not very common in online debate.

The discussion seems to have got back to the crux of the argument - is it hateful and horrible to call out NS for her actions in government and her words in her book, and does it have to be done in a polite manner?

Discounted already! I'm taking that as a sign of slow sales. I covered this display copy with the more aptly titled volume in the other photo.

BBC Breakfast AT BBCBreakfast
'Forces on the far right have weaponised this issue' Nicola Sturgeon, former First Minister of Scotland, spoke to #BBCBreakfast about the debate on gender recognition laws which would have made it easier for people in Scotland to change their legally-recognised sex

For Women Scotland AT ForWomenScotland
Again with the unsubstantiated lies about the women's movement in Scotland. PLEASE, journalists ask her EXACTLY who she means and who she thinks they control here!

For Women Scotland AT ForWomenScotland
In Dec, along with AT mbmpolicy AT Scot_Feminists AT WWWheesht AT WRNScotland AT ScotLesbians, we asked her and the publishers Pan Macmillian to clarify this or to desist in making sly allusions to women's groups which have exposed us to horrible abuse.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,feminist-groups-call-on-nicola-sturgeon-to-clarify-comments

I've just read this, thank you, that's a good apology
I'm sorry it didn't end the matter - I'm going back to read the later posts to see why it didn't. Sometimes people post responses to earlier posts - in this case earlier posts of your before this apology.
I hope that's what has happened, and that most people will have taken your apology at full face value, as I am.

For now anyway, I'm going to read on past it and see what's what.

"..the iron merkin of NS"! Chef's kiss.

To those that think this thread is being mean either to NS or to you.
You've got to see the context. This thread is about someone with absolute power in Scotland who behaved like an absolute authoritarian asshole.
I want to fully justify that comment, but I'd be here all day, and it would take you all day to read it. A short list of lowlights. From the small(ish) stealing the campervan and the money donated for independence, through the farcical ferrys fiasco, the utter disregard and dismissal of different points of view "Isla Bryson is rapist gender". The list is depressingly disproportionately large.
People are understandably pissed off with NS and the SNP in general. Racist Yousef spitting out "white!, white!, white!". The thought crime bill. Unholy alliance with Harvie the pound shop Bond villain.
Since the departure of Salmond ( who they tried to crucify with what looks like witness tampering ) the SNP leadership has proven again and again to be utterly incompetent, and possibly to have broken the law in several different ways over several different issues.
People are angry at this. Anger in this thread directed at NS has a good basis.
If you then want to complain about language used, or t shirts, it seems pretty fukking petty by comparison. It almost feels like an attempt to either shut down criticism, or telling people they are "wrong" to feel angry at the multitudes of malfeasance. I'm wondering if we are going to get told we should be happy with dear glorious leader NS?
It's your right to post any comments you want that follow the MN posting rules, but given the context its very obvioous that people are very angry about what's happened it seems quite disingenuous for you to act shocked and offended that people are expressing their anger.
NS trying to rewrite history in her book like a soviet cold war era dictator isn't helping matters either. If it was within her powers I'm sure there would be drab depressing soul crushing concrete statues all over Scotland praising Dear Leader's 15 year plan. 200 foot baby boxes blotting out the sun. Supplicant Scottish peasant women anointing Jesus's Nicola's feet with costly ointments and wiping them with their hair, a gesture of devotion and humility. All in technicolour concrete grey actively sucking any colour of the surroundings. North Korea has now, and has always had better leaders than Scotland under the iron merkin of NS.