Single sex spaces

@Hapiiif I link to it, it will get this comment deleted but if you search on Change.org there is a petition by transwomen Miriam Yardley and Fionne Orlander for just what you are asking for - additional mixed sex spaces. Perhaps you and, if you know of any similar minded trans people, could sign and publicise. Women shouldn’t have to do the work for you - no one other than women campaigned/fundraised/organised to get rape crisis centres and domestic violence shelters/refuges - we got off our arses and did the work necessary.

What Red said.

To be perfectly honest, I think the whole thing is actually offensive to women but I'm also fully aware that's not going to change how others feel so I have to suck it up to a certain degree. I have to let others live the life they want even if I don't like it.

It's the same as any other life choice / belief really. I have to respect it even if I don't have time for it. My interest is in protecting women and girls from this nonsense because it's already dominated a huge part of my family life without regards to how it impacts women and their own self worth and sense of self.

So in pragmatic terms third spaces are the only solution that works for both parties and negates the most extreme element who want to 'stealth' and use the women's because transwomen are being 'so persecuted and erased' because it shows them up this group as wanting to use women in facilities not just wanting to pee.

I really am done with being asked to fawn over it and give oodles of sympathy. You need to deal with your own health and beliefs without putting it onto women to deal with. We've done enough and we've got enough on in terms of our own problems already.

I don't owe anyone anyone emotional labour or sympathy. As I said, I do feel appeals to sympathy by males on this are still low level attempts to guilt and force team.

If that seems cold, I really don't care. There's a million and one other 'good causes' out there all vying for attention and frankly there are others that I think more support due to affecting such a small number of people and really aren't taken anywhere near as seriously as they should. I'd rather focus my effort there.

It's not like there's a shortage of 'woke bros' out there to tap up for support on this.

I genuinely appreciate your frustration, I have want some official figures to give more weight to the discussion.

The 2021 England and Wales Census reported about 262,000 people identified as having a gender identity different from their birth‐registered sex—roughly 0.5 % of the population aged 16 and over. That includes:

~48,000 trans women (0.10%)

~48,000 trans men (0.10%)

~30,000 non‐binary individuals (0.06%)

~18,000 others who wrote in a different identity

Among younger people (16–24 years), the percentage is higher about 1 % identify as trans .

For context, estimates from earlier reports suggest there could be 200,000–500,000 trans people in the UK , but there's no definitive count.

Trans people represent a very small minority of the population, and the latest census data is imperfect, especially for those born outside the UK or whose first language isn't English. That matters because it highlights that this isn't about inflated numbers or political messaging, it’s about real people threatened in everyday spaces.

To be honest, I don’t fully know how the TRM specifically shaped each legal shift in the UK. It's complex and I don't follow them. What I do know is that:

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 came in response to the Goodwin v UK case, a European Court of Human Rights decision that found denying legal recognition of gender was a violation of rights.

More recently, legal adjustments for example around definitions in the Equality Act have evolved under pressure from various advocacy groups and public debate.

I don’t have a direct understanding of how much TRA activism versus judicial rulings or policy reviews influenced these changes but I’m open to exploring that if it would help this discussion.

I also think this 'allyship' @Hapii describes doesn't hold much water.

1. I have no more in common with a transwoman than I do with any other man

2. A huge amount of trust has been lost due to the position the trans movement has taken thus far. The movement has shown zero regard for women's rights. Why would I think that's changed? Why would we think we owe anything when women have been treated so badly?

Men designing and expecting the rest of us…

there is no ‘rest of us’ - a trans woman is simply a man - in fact being born a man is the one criteria needed to allow someone to call themselves a trans woman. So if men are the problem - then trans women are a part of that story…

I would like to see the evidence that trans women spend their time in fear and trembling using the gents - I have seen no evidence and as a man I have been in a lot of gents in my life! I can totally see other men taking the micky out of them for clothing etc. but violence and oppression to the point that a trans women can’t enter a gents without being in fear of their life?! Until some evidence is shown to back that up I will have to disagree…

any transwoman can just wear jeans and a jumper and they will look like any other man - even if they have had artificial breasts - there are plenty of flabby men! And the recent topless demos show that they rarely look like women! So totally their choice how they present - if a man walks into a gents in a mini skirt, fish net tights and a crop top in some female parody while still being obviously male (gait / hips / Adams apple / etc) then they are setting themselves up - their choice…

third spaces are not needed - we have gents for men and ladies for women - two biological sexes / two type of loo, you use the one appropriate to your sex.

We have to get men to behave better. The more you go in the gents, the more the need for third spaces will be seen- or alternatively men’s behaviour will change and they will back you up.

All this, #ProtectTheDolls. You need a good stickering campaign. We’ll back you up- we like a nice sticker. All your friends can also sticker the gents as they go about their day. Honestly there’s a huge amount of goodwill out there for you- loads of demonstrations in your support.

And as for avoiding using toilets- yes. That’s normal too. There just aren’t enough, and women are likely to need them more frequently and more urgently than men, and with no discreet alternative in an emergency.

I agree/support much of what you say, but the idea that women bring credibility and pressure that cannot be ignored. We have been discredited, ignored, belittled and dismissed on this very issue for years. The dilution lays in TRA changing their tactics and focus and trying to win over the men!

And I'm not buying the whole 'we're so small' argument. The TRA movement managed to get laws changed, captured multiple institutions, undermined decades of safeguarding for women and girls.

If TW really want third spaces, they can put some of that extensive resource into campaigning for them. It should be a drop in the ocean compared to all that.

I hear what you are saying, and I am not asking women to carry this on their own or to centre men in the conversation. This is not about “won’t someone think of the men”, it is about people like me, who are already in danger, asking how we can get to a practical solution that protects everyone.

I agree completely that men should be taking far more responsibility here. They are the ones who design, fund and approve public facilities, and they are often the reason women and trans people alike have to fight for basic safety in the first place. Male violence, not women’s advocacy, is the root cause of this whole problem.

I also understand why you feel “forced teaming” has damaged goodwill, but this is where I see it differently. Third spaces are not a concession to men! they are a safeguard for anyone at risk from male behaviour, which includes women and trans people. Supporting them is not centring men, it is removing a weapon from them.

Nothing changes without numbers and noise. Movements have shown that collective pressure works, and women’s voices have historically been the ones that break through when speaking about safety in public spaces. I am not asking you to fight our battles for us, I am asking you to stand alongside me so we are not fighting against each other while the people with the power to fix this do nothing.

Everyone who presents in an unusual way meets pushback.

Goths, for example. Steampunk.
People with specific disabilities.
Very overweight people.

We all get looked at and have to brace ourselves. We get dirty looks. Women get a hell of a lot of it, to be honest. You sort of get used to tuning it out. Some people literally use headphones to allow them to ignore the unwanted commentary.

Like I say, there is support.

But ultimately, you need to put in the hard yards yourselves. This is a problem, caused by men, against other men, in men's spaces.

Women have enough emotional labour on their plate and have to do enough cleaning up of men's poor behaviour to take on any more.

In large organisations, they can have single sex and unisex facilities. Small providers tend to have single use. It’s the medium size that struggle. Hopefully, over time, with the clear understanding of their duties to cater for all (as opposed to inaccurate advice previously circulating) things should improve in terms of third spaces.

I also hope that, with the clarity given by the SC ruling, instead of vilifying women for wanting female only provision, attention with be given to males and what they can do to make the option for transwomen to use male provision feel less threatening.

Sorry - typo ‘men do not expect to see’ not now

It's so nice to hear you and GC women support third spaces, because that tells me we agree on the goal. But we also both know from experience that agreeing something is right does not magically make it happen.

The reason this is such a fight is the same reason you have had to fight for women’s spaces in the first place.. men control the budgets, men design the buildings, men write the policies, and men rarely have to think about the reality of being unsafe in a toilet. They are not the ones planning their day around avoiding certain spaces or clenching their keys in their hand just to get back out safely.

Third spaces are not being blocked because women oppose them. They are being blocked because the men in charge do not see the need. To them, toilets are toilets. They have never had to factor in the risk of being cornered, mocked or attacked in one.

That is exactly why women’s support matters so much here. You have lived experience of male violence, of being dismissed when you raise safety concerns, and of having to fight for basic protections. When you speak up for third spaces, you bring credibility, numbers and pressure that men cannot easily ignore.
We might be facing different versions of the same problem, but the root cause is the same.. Men designing a world for themselves and expecting the rest of us to fit in.

Why is it for women to do this labour?

Honestly, whilst I sympathise I'm frankly at the point of thinking where we're all the vocal transwomen before saying how wrong it was that we were railroaded.

We have said for years third spaces are the way for a compromise. Given how much crowdfunding there is and lobbying going on, it wouldn't be too difficult to organise at this moment in time.

This still feels like force teaming women once again at this point and I'm so over that.

Such is the damage that has been done to good will.

The whole 'but won't someone think of the men' when no one has really stood by women is still trying to get women to centre males and really males should be looking for the support of others males not looking towards women as the default support human.

There are actually plenty of men who would stand by this cause. And that's what it really needs because it would also go some way to dealing with the appalling male attitudes out there too.

Even without third spaces - I have never in 50+ years seen any issue in a gents - all men walk in studiously avoiding the gaze of others - some go to the cubicles, some go to the urinals a few just the basins… none of them have the slightest interest in others…

now if you have a man dressed to try and look like a woman, maybe even a man who has hade surgery or hormones to fake the look, then of course that is likely to attract attention as men do now expect to see women in the gents and so it would raise comment - even more so when it is obviously a man pretending to be a woman!

there is choice and agency in this all… men have a choice how they present - they can never be women so there isn’t an issue of a ‘trans woman’ being a woman having issues it is a man who has chosen to stand out against societal norms and potentially gone to great effort to do so - hardly surprising that they cause comment - but ultimately they have made that choice, one assumes they are aware of the consequences - and yet still I have never seen any issues… not sure there are even many records of issues - we just hear from men who say that they have personal internal trauma from the choices they have made - I am sad for them but that doesn’t give them the right to take over female spaces - if you make choices you accept the consequences

It seems like it's men that you need to get on side, not women.

The vast majority of GC women are supportive of third spaces.

The reality is that the UK trans population is tiny!! estimates put it at around 0.5 to 1 percent of the population. That is a very small group to try and mount an effective nationwide campaign, especially when many are already dealing with social stigma, safety concerns and the day-to-day challenges of just existing.

Feminist movements have shown how hard it is to bring about structural change, even when the group campaigning is much larger. It often takes solidarity from people outside the directly affected group to get real traction.

I completely agree that third spaces would be the ideal solution. My hope is that we can find common ground so that women who care about safety for themselves can also advocate for safety for others. We might have different reasons, but the goal, dignity and protection in public spaces is something we share.

That is exactly the question we should be asking, because sadly the answer is not “none”.

It is not about saying all men would behave that way, but it only takes one to make the situation unsafe. A men’s toilet is an enclosed space with no easy exit, and if someone decides to be aggressive, there is nowhere to go. It might be verbal harassment, mocking, following me in, blocking my way, or in the worst cases, physical intimidation.

These things do happen, and they happen quickly. Most women already understand why they would not feel safe walking into a men’s loo at a pub late at night. The same risks apply to me, except that my difference can make me a specific target.

This is why it is not just about “getting over discomfort”... it is about recognising that some environments come with a real, proven risk that needs to be addressed.

Is it really that hard?

We've been saying for ages, campaign for third spaces.

Because right now, when people say “just use the men’s”, what they are really saying is “take your chances”. They are saying that if I am cornered or attacked, that is my problem. They are telling me my safety matters less than their comfort in avoiding the conversation.

What kind of men would corner or attack you in the toilets? And why are we not addressing this appalling behaviour?

I am a trans woman and parent, and I respect women’s right to single sex spaces. I do not use women’s toilets or changing rooms because I understand why those boundaries exist.

That respect leaves me with only one option... the men’s toilets. I wish I could explain to people what it feels like to stand outside a door knowing that, once I walk through, I might face stares, comments, or worse. Some men see me and feel entitled to say something crude others visibly aggressive and threatening, others might follow me in. I keep my head down, move quickly, and hope I am left alone. It is not fear in the abstract. It is a calculation I make every single time.

So I often plan my day around avoiding public loos. I skip drinks before long journeys. I cut trips short. I have even left events early because I could not face taking the risk. It chips away at your freedom without most people ever noticing.

I am not asking to take away women’s spaces. I am asking how we can protect those spaces while also giving people like me somewhere safe to go. Because right now, when people say “just use the men’s”, what they are really saying is “take your chances”. They are saying that if I am cornered or attacked, that is my problem. They are telling me my safety matters less than their comfort in avoiding the conversation.

This is not about wanting validation. I do not care if strangers approve of me or not. I care about walking into a toilet and coming out again without being threatened, humiliated or hurt. I want to know I can wash my hands without watching the door like a hawk, without tensing every muscle in case someone blocks my way, without wondering if today is the day I meet the wrong man in the wrong place. That is not an unreasonable thing to want. It is the same basic safety everyone expects.

Ahh but. I believe people when they tell you who they are.

I will be so freaking happy when all this nonsense is behind us.