Misinformation correction: M&S Staff

If they are still on her twitter, why didn’t you post them when your misrepresentation was pointed out?

So, do tell where does this specifically say the M&S employee offered bra fitting :

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1953137839769534796?s=46

”Once again, I marvel at how many men think the only issue with a man offering to help a teenage girl with her bra is that the girl refused. They tweet this stuff under their own names and pictures. It's astounding.”

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1952931205055430729?s=46

“It's really quite astounding how many men are willing to state publicly that mothers shouldn't teach their teenage daughters to say 'no' to male strangers offering to help with their bras.”

And this in reply to Willoughby’s whataboutery about lesbians.

https://x.com/jkrowling/status/1952908877265359132?s=46

“Let me make this really easy for you, India. Lesbians belong in the women's changing room because they're women. Cross-dressing men who offer to fit bras on teenage girls belong in a police interview room.”

Or this

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1952498789824033247?s=46

”It's time for women to vote with their wallets. If stores like M&S continue to flout the Supreme Court ruling on women-only spaces, prioritising the wishes of men who want to undress near, or help fit bras on teenage girls, a boycott seems appropriate.”

You see, there is a difference between her responding to discussions that had started around the tasks that male employees might undertake if they are working in bra/lingerie departments/stores and accusing the specific M&S staff member of doing a particular thing.

But apparently, that distinction passed over your head. And even when it was pointed out to you, you doubled down as you have down for years.

Do you understand the difference?

If you had said ‘people on the internet are so focused on male people doing bra fittings. Even billionaire authors.’ You could be said to be writing the equivalent approach she has.

However, you specifically accused her of lying. Over and over.

Here we go:

21.08

“Because a sales assistant of any sex politely checking if customers need help and going about their day if they say no isn’t a safeguarding issue, even if the customers are a mother shopping with her teenage daughter.
Which is why every description of what happened has to outright lie (eg JKR telling her millions of followers that the employee was offering bra fitting, claiming that the girl was ‘accosted’, that the employee was ‘hovering around’), or to use really fucking weird language like the employee ‘made contact’ as if she was an extra terrestrial being bumping into the girl.
The lies are necessary because no one believes that what actually happened is actually some outrageous breach of safeguarding.”

I mean this above is a great example. This below can be debated as to whether you were accusing JK Rowling specifically if it was a single post without the prior context.

21.11

“Or as if those of us who do not want our trans friends to suffer recognise an absolutely abhorrent and dangerous trend of transphobes to identify a specific individual and use a pliant media and celebrity power to actively lie about them.”

Back to a direct accusation.

21.14

“So what’s your explanation as to why so many people talking about how outrageous this all is have to lie about what happened.
If ‘trans sales assistant politely checks if mother and teenage daughter shopping in lingerie department need help and goes about her day when they say no’ is really an outrageous safeguarding risk, why are so many folk like JKR having to lie and embellish?
There’s a very simple answer - none of you actually believe that what actually happened stands up as anything even vaguely worthy of the outrage.”

Back to general

22.59

“So no explanation on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened?
What a surprise?”

23.03

“We can surely agree that lying about what a trans person did in order to whip up outrage is transphobic though, right?
Since you’re so compassionate and all, I assume you’ll have no problem in recognising that lying about someone from a minority group in order to stoke outrage relating to common tropes about that group is one of the hallmarks of bigotry?”

23.06

“Another one refusing to venture a suggestion on why so many people feel the need to lie about what happened.
Occams razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.”

And this one to me pointing out the basic fact, ie the safeguarding fail, had not been lied about. So, this is a great example.

And another direct accusation.

23.11

“There have been no lies?
So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?”

I am going to add this c&p of my own post where I am pointing out your dishonest representation of my own post.

/start

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:22

“There has been no lies that a male person approached a 14 year old girl in the bra section.”

“This is a basic fact that is not a lie”.

“Notice how very specifically I did not say anything about bra fitting? Yet, you have just completely added facts to change what I said. That is dishonest but not unexpected.”

”That is actually you lying though. So it seems hypocritical to discuss alleged lies of others.”

End/

Now back to you, after both Sabrina and I even pointed out you were misrepresenting what JK Rowling had said.

You are still making direct accusations despite people pointing out your error in interpreration.

23.50

“You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.
Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?”

23.56

“Yes she [JK Rowling] did. They are still on her Twitter feed. At least twice - she referred to the employee as a ‘cross-dressing man who wants to help fit bras on teenage girls’ and a ‘cross-dressing man who offer to fit bras on teenage girls’.
Why do you think she lied?”

This is where you start to pick up your error and stopped with the fuckwittery about JK Rowling. Probably because you did go back to her tweets and realised you wanted to avoid posting the evidence to support your numerous and direct claims that she lied.

Because, even after you checked the tweets were still up on her account, you didn’t link them, despite being asked. Or maybe you didn’t even check when posting at 23.56 and you just assumed your post would be true and accurate.

To finally laughably post ….

0.02

“’Oh I never said this employee was hovering around’
’JK Rowling never said this specific employee offered bra fittings’
I hope you folk never have to face a defamation trial because your defences would be hilarious.”

You repeatedly misrepresented what JK Rowling posted, just like others have done. You probably allowed their malignly intended misrepresentations to confirm your own bias.

When it was pointed out to you, and people asked to you post your evidence, you doubled down and did a swerve to insulting other people’s comprehension. I must say though, I would value the posters you insulted’s research feeding into a defamation defence over your contributions and analysis.

And all this makes your post to cosimarama at 00.10 quite outstanding considering it was discussing your personal interpretations and characterisation. Which when you look at your posts about JK Rowling would seem to be rather poorly judged.

All on a thread called ‘Misinformation Correction- M&S Staff’ which hypocritically was spreading Misinformation in the very opening post. Which is of course, not your thread/not your post but is humorous all things considered.

Edited to bold areas to make a long post a bit easier to read.

PlanetJanette So you do think it would be wrong for a staff member to approach a girl and ask if shes looking for a bra?

You believe no M&S staff member would have approached a lone child in the underwear department because it would be a safeguarding issue?

Oh I know.

And ignore the point.

Because their intent is to undermine safeguarding and legitimate questions about safeguarding and to create a narrative that a parent asking a question about safeguarding is hysterical/ bigoted/ crazy/ making shit up and should be ignored by smearing them.

Their aim can not be anything but to shut down safeguarding principles.

Strangely since many of us have heard the scorned male who claims their ex is hysterical/ bigoted / crazy / making shit up, it doesn't really work too well as we understand the pattern of Misogyny.

We have probably experienced the gas lighting too.

As to your question. I don’t agree with your characterisation of (c). M&S seems to have sent a generic ‘sorry you had a bad experience’ that would be sent to any complaining customer. Presenting that as being some sort of admission that the employees act was wrong is nonsense. Also I’ve not seen anything from M&S saying the employee should not have been there.

The bits of the email quoted in the Telegraph don’t mention that. And of course the mother in the case has not actually released the full M&S response (which is curious given that she did so in respect of an email from a social worker - who she had no qualms about doxxing). So no, I don’t agree with (c). And (b) doesn’t add up. The mother claims that she could not be seen and yet she could see the employee approaching; she also says that she heard the employee ask the question before she saw her. She was close enough to her daughter to immediately respond when the question was asked. So yes, I think (b) is massively in doubt.

And no, I don’t think someone who has a longstanding axe to grind against trans people and the SNP (based on their twitter posts) and who remains anonymous despite merrily doxxing a social worker and, particularly, an employee who politely asked if help was needed is a particularly reliable source.

I have never at any time suggested that this man offered a bra fitting. He just inappropriately approached a young girl who appeared to be alone looking at underwear, and then disappeared when her mum appeared.

’Oh I never said this employee was hovering around’

’JK Rowling never said this specific employee offered bra fittings’

I hope you folk never have to face a defamation trial because your defences would be hilarious.

I'm not on twitter/x so if you could link to the posts in question, that would be great. Unless they don't exist as you have translated them.

The pp is just going to bluster and scold in their usual fashion. That’s all they can do.

Yes she did. They are still on her Twitter feed. At least twice - she referred to the employee as a ‘cross-dressing man who wants to help fit bras on teenage girls’ and a ‘cross-dressing man who offer to fit bras on teenage girls’.

Why do you think she lied?

Yes, I believe her. I don’t expect her to put herself and her daughter at risk to out herself. She’s more convincing than any pompous men scolding women for our boundaries.

Can you find the exact post from JKR where she said that specific staff member had offered a bra fitting. Rather than her saying that it was inappropriate for any male to do so?

You keep raising straw men.

The core of this is the following.

Adult males should not talk to lone teenage girls (who are not their own children) about their bras in ANY situation whatsoever OR put themselves into a situation where the conversation is highly likely to talk about bras OR they may be perceived that they are talking to an underage child about bras.

M&S are not addressing this point.

It's not even about this particular incident. It's about a general policy by M&S to commit to informing and training staff about this.

They don't want to.

Attempts to suggest the story is about ANYTHING else is either ignorance, naviety or deliberately and willful dishonesty.

A disturbing number of people are using the story as a way to try and undermine safeguarding principles. Many seem to be doing so in a fundamentally dishonest manner. You are one such poster who has raised more red flags than most on this score.

You don’t know who she is, her account is riddled with inconsistencies, but you believe her.

Did you believe JK Rowling when she repeatedly lied and said the employee had offered bra fitting?

Why are you saying that M&S telling lies?

Why are you saying M&S is telling lies?

Ah come on now, you’re accusing me of lying about something I haven’t said at all about the employee in this case. Not sure why you’re doing that. It’s untrue of you to claim I said the employee in this incident “hovered round…” I wrote that M&S isn’t the kind of place where that sort of hovering interaction ever happens between staff and customers. The vibe from companies that encourage cold approaches, where they pretend to be busy while asking things like “are you looking for anything in particular?” “Let me know if you need any help” “warm out today isn’t it” etc.

As I previously said, the devil is in the detail with this incident. To reiterate for absolute clarity the employee in this case was NOT hovering around looking to help customers and chat to them. Again, as previously referenced, he walked up to a child from behind while she appeared to be alone browsing bras in the lingerie department - a department he wasn’t assigned to - and got her attention with “can I help you with anything” or a similar question. As many said on the first thread, it would be peculiar for any employee to do that. You don’t think there’s anything odd, weird, inappropriate, with it. Many do, hence the publicity.

In terms of the rest of your post, the entire incident comes from the mum’s word that a) a male staff member approached her 14 year old daughter in the lingerie department asking if she wanted him to help her while she was looking at bras b) the child appeared to be alone c) the company emailed apologising and confirmed he shouldn’t have been there. Additional details the mum has given on her X account say she wasn’t visible to the employee and she has requested the cctv footage from the store.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing about in terms of these three points. It seems to be point b mainly but it seems odd to dispute that the employee couldn’t see the mum when you obviously weren’t there? If you’re wrong that the mum, who the entire story comes from, is lying about point b, is point a ok with you? So if she’s wrong about point b, is it still ok for male staff to approach women and children who are together to ask the child specifically if they want help with bras? Why do you keep suggesting that M&S is somewhere that staff go up to customers and ask if they want help with xyz when it isn’t and never has been? Or, let’s say this staff member believes that, unlike other staff, they should do that, why choose to do it to a child looking at underwear on a floor they don’t actually cover. Why not in home or clothes sections where they work?

M&S’s “operating model” as you present it appears to be along the lines of “male staff can and should ask children about their underwear needs - approach girls with a polite ‘can I help you’ while they’re browsing alone or with grown ups”. Is that what you think is ok and normal? That’s why people want clarity and there’s talk about boycotts.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you feel like someone has been identified in public for just being ‘helpful’. You think the mum is just an extremely driven bigot who’s gone to the extent of using her own child to push a personal anti-trans view by lying about what happened. Ok, so if that was the case the pertinent question is still there regardless - is it fine for male staff to approach children, teen girls, in the lingerie section to ask if they want help while they are browsing underwear? Do you think that’s ok for the girls in question? Maybe you do but that’s the what you and M&S seem unwilling answer.

The heart of the matter and I agree, they don’t actually “proactively engage” in practice, whatever some job ad says. Not in any M&S I’ve ever been in anywhere in the country. In the lingerie department, in the food hall, in the clothes department or anywhere else.

No. She talked about how it would be inappropriate for a male person to offer to do a bra fitting. But didn’t directly state that the male person did anything but approach the teenaged girl.

It is actually a pretty telling aspect of the tactics used to shame and distract people from the basic facts. A male person approached a 14 year old girl in a bra section. Which was inappropriate behaviour and a safeguarding failure.

There has been no lies that a male person approached a 14 year old girl in the bra section.

This is a basic fact that is not a lie.

Notice how very specifically I did not say anything about bra fitting? Yet, you have just completely added facts to change what I said. That is dishonest but not unexpected.

That is actually you lying though. So it seems hypocritical to discuss alleged lies of others.

JK Rowling did not claim that the person in question was offering to do a bra fitting.

Do keep up @PlanetJanette

I dont give a fuck what their advert says. As pp said, the “job description” won’t involve approaching teenage girls looking at bras for anyone, let alone men.

@PlanetJanette

Occam's razor applies here. If one side needs to spread falsehoods about something that happened, the simplest explanation is that what actually happened didn’t support their arguments.

What falsehoods?

It isn’t what happened. The mother, and I believe her, not TRAs, says that the child was alone when she was approached by the male member of staff. Who left as soon as she appeared.

What Red said.

There have been no lies?

So JK Rowling repeatedly claiming that the employee was offering to do a bra fitting wasn’t a lie?