Misinformation correction: M&S Staff

The average age of menarche (starting one's period) in the UK is 12. The average age of thelarche (breast development) is 11.3 years, with a range of 8-13 years - funnily enough the average age for a first bra fitting is also 11 years. Also a reminder that teenaged girls can be very discriminatory to their peers

Quick question.

Why did you feel the need to explain female puberty to us women?

That’s the sort of thing a person would do if trying to convince others they actually know what it’s about, rather than just having googled it.

Then rounded off with a dig at teenage girls as well. All the girls I knew were either supportive of each other going through a shared experience or said nothing because they wanted to be private about it. It’s almost like you’ve never been involved in the process.

I notice that Nat doesn't address the absolutely central question about when it is acceptable for a male person (which a transwoman is, according to the recent judgement) to approach a young female person and offer to talk with her about her underwear. Which does seem to be what happened in M&S that day; no-one including M&S has denied it as far as I know.

I doubt very much that a male person's job would carry the expectation he would have to approach young females and talk to them about their underwear, so "just doing his job" is unlikely to be true.

And I am prepared to take the word of M&S assistants that they are not required as part of their job to approach anyone whatever; all my experience in M&S goes to back this up, because you have to hunt the people working there down, stalking them along the aisles from behind the displays and pouncing as they or you round a corner, to get any help in M&S at all.

I don't know was it bigoted, transphobic or pearl clutchy of me to look up what the internet says about 'thelarche' (not being a medic I've never needed the word, it's unpleasant enough living through it without having to read about it) and guess what - it takes between 2 and 4 years to complete. So even if your age 11.3 for the start of it was correct, adding the mean 3 years to that gives, guess what, a result of 14.3 years.

Girls don't go from flat-chested to 'ping' full-bosomed overnight.

So our collective experience of being female seems to be - surprise - more accurate than your weird fantasy.

Keep posting, please.

You make our case for us.

Ugh look at this repulsive misogyny plain for all to see.

Women, you should all STFU and let the menz talk to the 14 year old girls about their bras in peace. Amirite?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

This isn’t Reddit, mate

Im quite happy for Operation Let Them Speak to carry on.

‘Shrieking’.

Are women ‘hysterical’ too Natalie?

The bigots, transphobes, and pearl-cluchers are out in force, I see.

Fear not; MNHQ will be along shortly to ban the horrid account that doesn't agree with your shrieking and dares to suggest that maybe, just maybe, the circus of moral outrage over this incident isn't quite as founded as your echo chamber is telling you...

And that is all you have to contribute to defend your post that points to your lack of ability to identify safeguarding failures? And any knowledge about the needs of teenaged girls?

Well done.

Well I'm not going to report you.

It's amusing to see the tall women trope in certain circles doing the rounds ATM, so I'm sure you'll be reporting back to them.

I'm here for the comedy.

I had my first ever bra fitting at age 31 (pregnant and suddenly was no longer completely flat chested).

apparently Bravissimo publish the exception under the EA they use for their job ads for female only staff.

This would be available to M&S if they chose to centre safeguarding and female customer’s needs to hire staff just for the lingerie department, specifically for bra fittings.

Female people can be centred without this being framed in anyway as transphobia.

It does not benefit transindividuals who have the right to exist and work in public spaces.

Not everything in life has to benefit men.

Women and girls have their own individual needs too.

My DD is 16 and the same.

It does not benefit transindividuals who have the right to exist and work in public spaces.

No one has the right to work anywhere they want to.

He was allocated to work in another department, do you really think it was within his rights to go into the underware section and talk to children?

Funny there are always tells isn't there.

It's still not a crime. Individuals can discriminate all they like against transexuals provided that they don't commit actual crimes like assault or harassment.

DD is 16 and sfill doesn’t wear a proper bra. She’s very slim and small chested.

Transphobia, (i.e. discrimination against a protected characteristic), is a crime.
You would have to prove that the mother would have been perfectly happy to have her daughter approached by a male assistant who wasn't trans-identified.

It's pretty obvious that Natalie is a bloke who doesn't know much about female anatomy. Any woman would have volunteered the age at which she first got fitted for a bra to bolster her argument.

Incidentally AFAIK it's not actually a crime to discriminate against transexuals. Employers & service providers can be sued in civil court or employment tribunal if the transexual thinks they have a case but nobody can be prosecuted. Individuals can discriminate all they like. For example if a female shopper doesn't want to be served by a male transexual she is perfectly entitled to ask for a female instead.

A girl's first ever bra-purchase at the age of 14 years is statistically unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

What a strange remark. Whatever makes you think that?

But perhaps you don’t know much about teenage girls.

Perhaps Natalie is suggesting that the girl in question is very small for her age. Also that she may have looked younger than fourteen - even as young as 11.

Basically, in the rush to demonstrate their female puberty knowledge, didnt make the male assistant look any better.

Maybe the 14 year old was looking for her first ‘proper’ bra rather than a ‘training’ bra worn by a less developed girl? but whatever choice she was making had sod all to do with him because he’s male.

I don’t care how helpful he thought he was being, he should know better. He didn’t consider how his actions/words might affect a young female because he just doesn’t care.
Some men have been accused of sexual harassment just by mentioning a woman’s breasts.

…A transgender or non-binary person being the victim of sexual assault, not to mention facing discrimination for simply trying to live their lives in peace….

Are you absolutely sure about that?
Women take the unfortunate 1st place as victims of sexual assault and abuse.
Most TransW, short or tall, have no interest in living their lives ‘in peace’ as evidenced every single time women (the female variety) want to get together without including men claiming they’re women.

Having been a girl, and attended school with girls, and later worked with schoolgirls, and observing the younger generation of girls growing up, 14 seems very much the average age of needing to get a bra fitted (as opposed to wearing something stretchy on ones chest).

I'd be interested to know where the statistic that suggested otherwise came from, and how many girls were included in the study.

In fact, those numbers seem potentially iffy, since neither first menstruation nor the need for a full bra are things any independent agency collects data on.