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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does the general public want to watch programmes about Transwomen?

209 replies

TiredOldHen · 08/08/2025 09:13

Media like The Guardian, Independent, BBC…etc really seem to push and promote any programmes with a very prominent transwoman/transwomen content. I just wondered how popular they actually are with viewers. For example there was lots of Trailers and ‘You must watch this’, ‘Essential viewing’… for What it Feels Like for a Girl. Do viewing figures reflect the same level of interest amongst viewers for programmes launched like this or Drag Race. I would genuinely like to know if they are satisfying a demand. Most programmes for young people now seem to have at least one trans person. It’s hard to tell in my bubble how interested people are outside the GC/TWAW debate.or if it’s just (in a Dr Who way) pushed upon them as something they should be aware interested in.

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Shortshriftandlethal · 09/08/2025 12:49

SugarSoiree · 09/08/2025 10:23

Well of course you totally know more about what peoples intentions are than the people actually doing the thing and telling you what their intentions are 🙄

You do realise that many of us have been around drag and the male, gay scene more generally.

Waitwhat23 · 09/08/2025 11:07

SugarSoiree · 09/08/2025 10:23

Well of course you totally know more about what peoples intentions are than the people actually doing the thing and telling you what their intentions are 🙄

In the scenario you keep advancing, it's men calling other men 'girly', 'women' and 'effeminate' because those men see women as lesser than men. They use it as an insult. So the men being referred to as 'girly' (because to misogynists, it's the ultimate insult) then 'reclaim' the insult by...using misogynistic language (fishy), wearing over the top makeup and leaning into bitchy stereotypes about women. It's not celebrating women or being feminine or effeminate. It's making women the brunt of the joke. It's the idea that being a woman is so clearly lesser to men that we can be reduced to stereotypes.

How is that anything but deeply insulting to women? Their intent is quite clear.

SugarSoiree · 09/08/2025 10:23

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/08/2025 10:17

I think we all know the drag narrative....about gay man appropriating that which they've been 'accused of' ( ie being a 'girly'; being 'effeminate etc) and reclaiming it, somehow.....but to my mind most drag is just insulting and offensive to women...relying on crude jokes about sex and the female body, especially female genitals ( which give most gay men the ick'). A lot of gay men say it is all about "celebrating" women...but that is certainly not how it comes across, or how it feels at all.I actually think many gay men are totally repulsed by female bodies.

Edited

Well of course you totally know more about what peoples intentions are than the people actually doing the thing and telling you what their intentions are 🙄

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/08/2025 10:17

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 22:17

All of the drag queens I ever have seen are gay effeminate men. They're not blokey blokes from down the pub just taking the piss out of their MIL by chucking a wig on.

Drag started as effeminate gay men expressing their feminine side when it was unacceptable for men to be feminine, a cover for them if you like. That is obviously not the case any more, though a lot of men really seem to be uncomfortable around effeminate gay men and especially drag queens so it's clearly still not openly accepted. I certainly don't think the effeminate gay men who appear in drag race are in positions of power in society and oppressing women.

Whether you all think it's acceptable or not, you simply cannot deny the artistry of it. Many modern make up techniques including contouring were invented by drag queens.

I think we all know the drag narrative....about gay man appropriating that which they've been 'accused of' ( ie being a 'girly'; being 'effeminate etc) and reclaiming it, somehow.....but to my mind most drag is just insulting and offensive to women...relying on crude jokes about sex and the female body, especially female genitals ( which give most gay men the ick'). A lot of gay men say it is all about "celebrating" women...but that is certainly not how it comes across, or how it feels at all.I actually think many gay men are totally repulsed by female bodies.

Annoyedone · 09/08/2025 04:58

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:36

I have explained about the extent that this could influence the data in these indices, and this is marginal. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist, in which case pick any figure you like 😁

Yes bit you haven’t explained which definition of woman you are using when you claim these countries are good for women. Are you using the correct adult human female definition or the incorrect “anyone who says they are” definition?

Shmoigel · 08/08/2025 23:38

The final series of sex education absolutely bombed because of the proliferation!!

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:36

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:24

But how do you know? If TW are being recorded as women surely that would skew the data wouldnt it? And recording them as TW would therefore imply they are not women, Which definition of woman are you using?

I have explained about the extent that this could influence the data in these indices, and this is marginal. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist, in which case pick any figure you like 😁

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:31

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:20

You’re the one who keeps arguing with everyone that it isn’t offensive, so clearly you don’t think we’re allowed our opinions!

That's quite a stretch.

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:24

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:14

My post explained the negligible overall impact that self-ID processes would have on a country's performance in these indices. We are able to conclude from the overall data (additionally considering studies that analyse trans wellbeing and equality) that these countries are 'good' for both women and transwomen.

But how do you know? If TW are being recorded as women surely that would skew the data wouldnt it? And recording them as TW would therefore imply they are not women, Which definition of woman are you using?

Grammarnut · 08/08/2025 23:23

toastedteddy · 08/08/2025 09:48

Can you name a right you don’t have today that you had a year ago? 5 years ago? A decade ago? There is an issue - and I’m not denying that. But I just do not believe it is the biggest issue facing our society today and I will maintain that.

For some time I have not had the right to be certain no man will be in a public lavatory designated female. I have not had the right to be sure the person in the next cubicle in a changing room is not male despite the area being designated female. I have not had the right to protest about these things without being called a transphobe or a bigot. I could go on and on and on. Women's rights have been trashed including their right to be same sex attracted and their right to talk about their own-bodied experience without men, or indeed talk about anything without males about. You must be an ostrich if you have not noticed this!"

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:20

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:19

That is your opinion. Mine is different.

You’re the one who keeps arguing with everyone that it isn’t offensive, so clearly you don’t think we’re allowed our opinions!

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:19

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:17

Oh but you will find such black people.

oh and just because some women aren’t offended by it doesn’t mean it’s not offensive. There are always people who will go against their own interests.

That is your opinion. Mine is different.

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:17

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:16

I don't feel oppressed or mocked by drag and neither do many other women.

You won't find a single black person not offended by black face.

There's your difference. Not interested in arguing about it anymore.

I gave my answer on why I enjoy it, misty glade clearly appreciated my answer. It was nice to have a positive exchange here for once.

Oh but you will find such black people.

oh and just because some women aren’t offended by it doesn’t mean it’s not offensive. There are always people who will go against their own interests.

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:16

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:11

That’s just one example of many though. There was a drag show where the female impersonator simulated an abortion on stage and many more examples of similarly disgusting behaviour.

How is a member of the oppressor class dressing up as and impersonating a member of the oppressed class in a stereotypical, and often offensive way, any different than black face? It’s exactly the same thing. It’s just that you don’t care when it’s women who are being made the butt of the joke.

I don't feel oppressed or mocked by drag and neither do many other women.

You won't find a single black person not offended by black face.

There's your difference. Not interested in arguing about it anymore.

I gave my answer on why I enjoy it, misty glade clearly appreciated my answer. It was nice to have a positive exchange here for once.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2025 23:14

There is also one at least called ‘MissCarriage’.

I find it really interesting that these patterns keep turning up in drag yet we are censured for saying that there is something inherent misogynistic about this genre of entertainment and that we should just ignore the bad apples. No thank you. How many bad apples does it take before we can finally point out the misogyny without us being shamed for pointing it out.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:14

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:08

But if males with a trans identity are included in the statistics for women, how can you state those countries are good for women? What definition do woman are you using?

My post explained the negligible overall impact that self-ID processes would have on a country's performance in these indices. We are able to conclude from the overall data (additionally considering studies that analyse trans wellbeing and equality) that these countries are 'good' for both women and transwomen.

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:14

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:11

You're clearly not listening.

I found a lot of Frankie Boyles jokes offensive and couldn't stand the man, he was constantly on TV for years though so clearly other people liked him as they are entitled to.

Just accept that a lot of women don't find drag offensive, don't feel mocked by it, and enjoy watching it and that is why it's on the TV. If people didn't watch it it wouldn't be on. That's the answer to the OPs question.

Lots of people find the appropriation of the term black face to woman face offensive for the reasons I stated above. I really don't care if you agree.

Lots of black people didn’t find things like black face and Golliwog dolls offensive either. Lenny Henry even starred in The Black and White Minstrel Show. Doesn’t mean it was ever okay, does it?

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:11

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:06

Men dressing up as women and mocking them is crass and offensive. What else would you call a member of the oppressor class mocking members of the oppressed class by dressing as them and mocking them using offensive stereotypes?

You're clearly not listening.

I found a lot of Frankie Boyles jokes offensive and couldn't stand the man, he was constantly on TV for years though so clearly other people liked him as they are entitled to.

Just accept that a lot of women don't find drag offensive, don't feel mocked by it, and enjoy watching it and that is why it's on the TV. If people didn't watch it it wouldn't be on. That's the answer to the OPs question.

Lots of people find the appropriation of the term black face to woman face offensive for the reasons I stated above. I really don't care if you agree.

LoverOfTerriers · 08/08/2025 23:11

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:07

Yes, and it's gross. That doesn't make a whole genre of entertainment bad or womanface a real term though.

That’s just one example of many though. There was a drag show where the female impersonator simulated an abortion on stage and many more examples of similarly disgusting behaviour.

How is a member of the oppressor class dressing up as and impersonating a member of the oppressed class in a stereotypical, and often offensive way, any different than black face? It’s exactly the same thing. It’s just that you don’t care when it’s women who are being made the butt of the joke.

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:09

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:07

Yes, and it's gross. That doesn't make a whole genre of entertainment bad or womanface a real term though.

What about drag queens using the term “fish”? Do you not find that offensive?

Waitwhat23 · 08/08/2025 23:09

As well as Anna Bortion, here's some more -

Ginger Minj
Felicity Suxwell
Flo Job
Malestia Child
Annie B. Frank
Phallic Cunt

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:08

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:05

Let's walk this back a bit. Of course the international indices looking at women's well-being and equality do not incorporate data on a country's gender self-ID processes, I never made the case that they did. But it is still perfectly possible to measure this isn't it? You just do a cross comparison of the performance of countries for women against their legal processes for gender self ID and you can easily see what is happening there.

You seem to believe that no analysis on this can be done and no 'gotcha' possible because that was not a measure included in these original indices, but of course that is not the case and it can be analyzed by taking that additional step independently.

So, as we can see, all the major indices looking at women's equality with men and general well-being on multiple measures also tend to have gender self ID in place. Of the three major international indices, the top 10 countries for women in two of these have eight countries with gender self-id processes and in the third all 10 countries have gender self ID processes.

And then comes the question about correlation and causation. But of course I'm not asserting causation, I'm simply pointing out that these countries are able to perform optimally for women whilst simultaneously also having gender self-id processes in place. The burden is on gender critical feminists to explain why, if gender self-ID is so harmful to women, these countries have not fallen down the international comparator tables for women's equality and well-being since introducing gender self ID processes. Because several countries have now had this in place for several years and they have retained their ranking at the top of the international tables for women. They are countries with strong track records in performance for women and why would you think that they are all suddenly now dramatically making bad decisions for women after such a strong track record? And you think all of them have simultaneously lost their minds over this point? It doesn't really add up does it? These are sensible, credible, stable countries, not prone to making whimsical decisions that adversely impact their populations. It is a common refrain on mumnsnet feminism and women's rights that 'how can you support women's rights if you cannot define what a women is?' but of course by their definition all these countries do not know what a woman is and they top the tables for women internationally.

And then you try to make the case that the potential inclusion of trans women data in women statistics would bring these countries up the index ranking but of course this is not the case - because we know that trans women score poorly across the measures in these indices and , if that data is included in women's statistics would marginally bring down women's scores rather than elevating them.

You raise a point that anyone could claim self ID and this is not just feature for trans people. Whilst theoretically true it verges on conspiracy theory to think that large swathes of these (fairly sensible country populations) have people who have M on their birth certificates are, for shits and giggles, suddenly putting down F on tax records, education certificates, and in hospital records etc etc. We know that the number of trans people is stabilizing roughly in the region of 1% or slightly lower, and it is a figure in this region which we can expect the data to be influenced by.

You also hypothesize that I do not consider trans men in the data but of course I am aware of the potential impact here. At the moment we are roughly seeing equal numbers of trans women and trans men, especially in the countries with strong LGBT track records, where trans people feel more comfortable with a certain a trans identity, and which are also the ones that lead the international tables for women's rights. So with this in mind we would roughly expect the influence of trans women in women's data and trans men in men's data to be equal. Both would bring down the overall scores for the sex demographic they were recorded in, as we know that both trans women and trans men as demographics score poorly on wellbeing, educational attainment, employment figures, income, physical health and mental health and political empowerment. They would do this to a similar magnitude resulting in an overall negligible impact on the index.

So we have every reason, because of this, to believe that the trans data in these studies exerts a very marginal overall influence on the overall outcome and ranking on these international indices.

I do myself support the recording of data in both respects, for sex assigned at birth and gender self ID if this differs, accessible make it easier to analyze the data in the future with more accuracy.

But if males with a trans identity are included in the statistics for women, how can you state those countries are good for women? What definition do woman are you using?

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:07

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:03

What about Ana Bortion? Is thst not mocking abortions?

Yes, and it's gross. That doesn't make a whole genre of entertainment bad or womanface a real term though.

Annoyedone · 08/08/2025 23:06

SugarSoiree · 08/08/2025 23:03

Look. You find drag offensive. Fine.

I don't, all the other women who watch and enjoy it don't. Also fine. We can agree to disagree.

Trying to coin a phrase that plays on blackface is crass and offensive in my opinion. Slavery, public lynchings, Scape goating for crime, not being allowed in the same buildings or on the same buses as white people, the racism against black people in recent history just isn't comparable to the issues women face. Sexism and misogyny is awful and we continue to fight it but I would never compare drag and it's effects on women (I don't believe there are any beyond some being offended) to the effect of black face on black people entrenching negative stereotypes that made it ok to continue abusing them. No one looks at a drag queen and says see! Women are so stupid! Make them get the stupid person bus I don't want them on my normal person bus!

Men dressing up as women and mocking them is crass and offensive. What else would you call a member of the oppressor class mocking members of the oppressed class by dressing as them and mocking them using offensive stereotypes?

suggestionsplease1 · 08/08/2025 23:05

GenderRealistBloke · 08/08/2025 11:44

You seem to be under the impression in making this statistical point that: i) self-ID is only available to trans people, and ii) all (or at least, substantially all such that the exceptions can be ignored) trans people are male, i.e. are trans women.

You are mistaken on both counts. This is another example of where I don't think you've thought your points through.

That's even if I grant you that the average person availing themselves of self-ID in the stats is less advantaged than the average person not availing themself. I have no data on that, and if you do, please feel free to share it. It would surprise me if such granular data is kept.

Let's walk this back a bit. Of course the international indices looking at women's well-being and equality do not incorporate data on a country's gender self-ID processes, I never made the case that they did. But it is still perfectly possible to measure this isn't it? You just do a cross comparison of the performance of countries for women against their legal processes for gender self ID and you can easily see what is happening there.

You seem to believe that no analysis on this can be done and no 'gotcha' possible because that was not a measure included in these original indices, but of course that is not the case and it can be analyzed by taking that additional step independently.

So, as we can see, all the major indices looking at women's equality with men and general well-being on multiple measures also tend to have gender self ID in place. Of the three major international indices, the top 10 countries for women in two of these have eight countries with gender self-id processes and in the third all 10 countries have gender self ID processes.

And then comes the question about correlation and causation. But of course I'm not asserting causation, I'm simply pointing out that these countries are able to perform optimally for women whilst simultaneously also having gender self-id processes in place. The burden is on gender critical feminists to explain why, if gender self-ID is so harmful to women, these countries have not fallen down the international comparator tables for women's equality and well-being since introducing gender self ID processes. Because several countries have now had this in place for several years and they have retained their ranking at the top of the international tables for women. They are countries with strong track records in performance for women and why would you think that they are all suddenly now dramatically making bad decisions for women after such a strong track record? And you think all of them have simultaneously lost their minds over this point? It doesn't really add up does it? These are sensible, credible, stable countries, not prone to making whimsical decisions that adversely impact their populations. It is a common refrain on mumnsnet feminism and women's rights that 'how can you support women's rights if you cannot define what a women is?' but of course by their definition all these countries do not know what a woman is and they top the tables for women internationally.

And then you try to make the case that the potential inclusion of trans women data in women statistics would bring these countries up the index ranking but of course this is not the case - because we know that trans women score poorly across the measures in these indices and , if that data is included in women's statistics would marginally bring down women's scores rather than elevating them.

You raise a point that anyone could claim self ID and this is not just feature for trans people. Whilst theoretically true it verges on conspiracy theory to think that large swathes of these (fairly sensible country populations) have people who have M on their birth certificates are, for shits and giggles, suddenly putting down F on tax records, education certificates, and in hospital records etc etc. We know that the number of trans people is stabilizing roughly in the region of 1% or slightly lower, and it is a figure in this region which we can expect the data to be influenced by.

You also hypothesize that I do not consider trans men in the data but of course I am aware of the potential impact here. At the moment we are roughly seeing equal numbers of trans women and trans men, especially in the countries with strong LGBT track records, where trans people feel more comfortable with a certain a trans identity, and which are also the ones that lead the international tables for women's rights. So with this in mind we would roughly expect the influence of trans women in women's data and trans men in men's data to be equal. Both would bring down the overall scores for the sex demographic they were recorded in, as we know that both trans women and trans men as demographics score poorly on wellbeing, educational attainment, employment figures, income, physical health and mental health and political empowerment. They would do this to a similar magnitude resulting in an overall negligible impact on the index.

So we have every reason, because of this, to believe that the trans data in these studies exerts a very marginal overall influence on the overall outcome and ranking on these international indices.

I do myself support the recording of data in both respects, for sex assigned at birth and gender self ID if this differs, accessible make it easier to analyze the data in the future with more accuracy.

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