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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

European Convention on Human Rights

419 replies

JellySaurus · 06/08/2025 23:13

ARTICLE 8 the right to respect for private and family life, and Article 12 the right to marry, are used as to justify the requirement for the UK government to legally recognise people as the opposite sex. (Redundant, now that same-sex marriage is legal.)

8.1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

But why is 8.2, which is not mentioned in Article 12 but appears in similar form in many other Articles, not used as an argument for removing the GRA from our law?

8.2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Enabling men to access female single-sex spaces has resulted in crimes: women and girls being assaulted and raped. Medical transition causes long-term ill-health. Telling children that they may not be the sex they are, or that they have to pretend that somebody is not the sex they are, is immoral as it subverts safeguarding. Multiple court cases have demonstrated that transgenderism illegally restricts the rights and freedoms of others.

Isn’t it time to recognise this?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 13:07

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 13:02

Discriminating against a small group of women is not supporting women's rights, it's the opposite. Gender critical ideology is about upholding western beauty standards and biological essentialism. It's everything feminist stands against.

It's also why most large feminist orgs oppose gender criticals.

”Trans women” are a small group of men, not women, and it isn’t discrimination to exclude them for things intended only for women, in the same way it isn’t discrimination to exclude other men. However much those men disagree, because women have human rights too.

Greyskybluesky · 09/08/2025 13:06

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 13:02

Discriminating against a small group of women is not supporting women's rights, it's the opposite. Gender critical ideology is about upholding western beauty standards and biological essentialism. It's everything feminist stands against.

It's also why most large feminist orgs oppose gender criticals.

Gender critical ideology is about upholding western beauty standards and biological essentialism.

Oh god, don't make me laugh. Do you think that women have to be white and western to be gender critical? Nice bit of prejudice from you there.

Myalternate · 09/08/2025 13:05

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:57

Try getting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria without taking hormones. You won't get one.

Isn’t that like putting the cart before the horse?
Why would someone be prescribed synthetic hormone treatment before diagnosis?

It’s definitely a crazy world when someone thinks they’ve magically changed sex.
They do need treatment but it’s not hormones.

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 13:04

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 13:02

Discriminating against a small group of women is not supporting women's rights, it's the opposite. Gender critical ideology is about upholding western beauty standards and biological essentialism. It's everything feminist stands against.

It's also why most large feminist orgs oppose gender criticals.

But mate, you aren't a woman!!!

The supreme court says so for the basis of the equality act!!!

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 13:03

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:51

I've literally got a GRC and have gone through the procedure, and yes, HRT is a requirement. Surgery isn't, but you do have to explain why you haven't had surgery yet.

If you think hormones are a requirement for a GRC you've been misinformed.

There was a ruling by the ECHR saying transitioning could not have a requirement for medicalisation.

Good to know you understand the existing rights the ECHR has said there are. This really makes you look like you know what the fuck you are talking about!! 😂

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 13:02

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 13:00

Actually human rights are about protecting privacy and dignity and preventing harms.

That means women's human rights include the right to safeguard ourselves from males. It also includes having privacy and dignity from males.

If you think women's legal human rights' are 'hatred' then you really are showing yourself up.

Discriminating against a small group of women is not supporting women's rights, it's the opposite. Gender critical ideology is about upholding western beauty standards and biological essentialism. It's everything feminist stands against.

It's also why most large feminist orgs oppose gender criticals.

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 13:00

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:50

There's nothing safeguarding about irrational hatred

Actually human rights are about protecting privacy and dignity and preventing harms.

That means women's human rights include the right to safeguard ourselves from males. It also includes having privacy and dignity from males.

If you think women's legal human rights' are 'hatred' then you really are showing yourself up.

Greyskybluesky · 09/08/2025 12:58

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

It's a sad how so many people have grown an irrational hatred of so few. This will pass, eventually.

Transsexuals peacefully existed for decades, and will again in the future. Especially when people realise how unworkable and damaging the EHRCs bathroom ban is.

It's when transsexuals stopped "peacefully existing" that things became a problem. Women saw their services, spaces and rights being harmed and said no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:58

So clearing up that confusion @AYoungTransWomando you think men with GRCs who haven’t had any medical treatment should stay out of women’s spaces?

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:57

Try getting a diagnosis of gender dysphoria without taking hormones. You won't get one.

spannasaurus · 09/08/2025 12:54

No hormone treatment required for a GRC

European Convention on Human Rights
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:53

You haven’t “medically transitioned” if you’ve just taken cross sex hormones, for one thing, and there is no explicit requirement for any medical treatment at all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:52

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

You need to have medically transitioned to get a GRC.

This was specifically ruled out as a requirement before the GRA was passed in 2004.

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:51

spannasaurus · 09/08/2025 12:49

No you don't. No hormones or surgery are required for a GRC.

It's seems you are woefully ill-informed on trans matters

I've literally got a GRC and have gone through the procedure, and yes, HRT is a requirement. Surgery isn't, but you do have to explain why you haven't had surgery yet.

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:50

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 12:49

Safeguarding is not hate.

Hth

There's nothing safeguarding about irrational hatred

spannasaurus · 09/08/2025 12:49

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

You need to have medically transitioned to get a GRC.

No you don't. No hormones or surgery are required for a GRC.

It's seems you are woefully ill-informed on trans matters

RedToothBrush · 09/08/2025 12:49

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

It's a sad how so many people have grown an irrational hatred of so few. This will pass, eventually.

Transsexuals peacefully existed for decades, and will again in the future. Especially when people realise how unworkable and damaging the EHRCs bathroom ban is.

Safeguarding is not hate.

Hth

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

spannasaurus · 09/08/2025 12:45

What if they have a gender recognition certificate, would you still ask what's trans about them?

You need to have medically transitioned to get a GRC.

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:48

MarieDeGournay · 09/08/2025 12:45

The fact remains that nothing you can do can alter your sex.

'Being trans has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity' but by definition it has to do with being male or female, and attempting - unsuccessfully, because it is impossible - to change sex.

You can have all the hormones and all the surgery you can get, but you will never be, what you claim to be, a woman. Anybody telling you otherwise is misleading you.

After all the hormones and surgery you will still be a man, minus some body parts and plus some health issues. A different kind of man, but not a woman.

The difficult truth is that you are not now, and never will be a woman. You will never be legally entitled to use any single-sex facilities designated for women.

That's just the way it is. The facts are the facts - human sex is binary and immutable. That includes you, you are not an exception to the inability to change sex, and anybody who tells you that you can be something you're not is doing you a disservice.

It's a sad how so many people have grown an irrational hatred of so few. This will pass, eventually.

Transsexuals peacefully existed for decades, and will again in the future. Especially when people realise how unworkable and damaging the EHRCs bathroom ban is.

MarieDeGournay · 09/08/2025 12:45

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:29

There could be no such thing as gender stereotypes and I'd still be trans. Being trans has nothing to do with feminity or masculinity.

I am trans because the primary sex characteristics I was born with, and the secondary sex characteristics I developed before I stopped my puberty make me uncomfortable, and feel like they do not belong attached to me.

Most of the time I'm wearing the most gender neutral clothing I can because its comfortable. I have never cared about masculinity or femininity, they're both bullshit.

The fact remains that nothing you can do can alter your sex.

'Being trans has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity' but by definition it has to do with being male or female, and attempting - unsuccessfully, because it is impossible - to change sex.

You can have all the hormones and all the surgery you can get, but you will never be, what you claim to be, a woman. Anybody telling you otherwise is misleading you.

After all the hormones and surgery you will still be a man, minus some body parts and plus some health issues. A different kind of man, but not a woman.

The difficult truth is that you are not now, and never will be a woman. You will never be legally entitled to use any single-sex facilities designated for women.

That's just the way it is. The facts are the facts - human sex is binary and immutable. That includes you, you are not an exception to the inability to change sex, and anybody who tells you that you can be something you're not is doing you a disservice.

spannasaurus · 09/08/2025 12:45

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:41

What's trans about them?

What if they have a gender recognition certificate, would you still ask what's trans about them?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:43

They seem to think they’re “trans”, am I to understand that you don’t?

AYoungTransWoman · 09/08/2025 12:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2025 12:28

What about those “trans women” who don’t have any medical treatments? Should they use the men’s?

What's trans about them?

ItsCoolForCats · 09/08/2025 12:35

MarieDeGournay · 09/08/2025 11:01

I think they key point at the heart of the OP is not marriage, which Cannongoose's reply focuses on, but what happens in a democratic society when two groups make claims which are inimical to each other.

One of the glaring problems with transgenderism is that it erases the terms by which two important social groups, women and men, are defined.
You can have all the charters, declarations, Magna Cartas, proclamations, etc in the world declaring that women have certain rights specific to them, or people with disabilities, or other groups in society, have certain rights specific to them.
Definition of terms is essential in identifying these groups and guaranteeing them their rights.

A very very small, but very vocal group of men claim to be women, and claim they are therefore entitled to rights specific to women as a social group. This obliterates the established meaning of the term 'woman', and makes laws which are set up to confirms the rights of the group 'women' mean nothing, if the definition of 'women' includes 'men'.

It means that women as a social group lose the rights that they have been guaranteed in the past, such as the right to single-sex spaces in certain circumstances.
Women lose our sex-specific rights if anybody, regardless of biological sex, can legally identify as a woman, just as people with disabilities would lose rights to reasonable adjustments such as designated parking spaces if the entire population could legally identify as disabled.
Without clear definition of terms, specific rights and entitlements are paper tigers.

I believe that defining 'woman' as 'biological woman', excluding all biological men, regardless of how they identify, is covered by

8.2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society ...for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

because allowing anybody to identify into social groups they do not belong to is inimical to the rights and freedoms of those groups.

Michael Foran is very reassuring on this point, particularly when he looks at the existing case law. Countries have a wider margin of appreciation in enacting gender recognition laws when the rights of others are affected. The Equality Act does a good job of balancing competing rights.

The Good Law Project need to be honest with their supporters about this, instead of making ridiculous, bombastic, misleading statements about what they've actually achieved (such as their claim that they have forced the EHRC to capitulate on the provision of single sex spaces 🙄). And the last time I heard Victoria McCloud speaking about this he was utterly incoherent. Saying he might be intersex and talking about reducing women to their biological functions and every other TRA trope you can imagine. These are not serious legal arguments.