The disgraceful RCN and Nurse Jennifer Melle

Tell me you have no experience of working in a busy medical environment, without telling me you have no experience of working in a busy medical environment.

With all the pressure on the NHS at the moment and they are supposed to pander to this utter nonsense, give me a break!

Luxury belief 101.

Another straw man fallacy you have there, people agreeing or not with same sex marriage or respecting someone’s religious beliefs doesn’t involve any kind of participation or force teaming as is demanded by people who identify as something they’re quite clearly not. I have friends who hold religious beliefs, I hold none, at no point have they demanded that I pretend to believe in their religion in order to remain friends. Why on earth should affirmation of people’s delusions be expected of anyone?

That would be an unnatural way of speaking that takes up considerable mental effort for already over stretched NHS staff that should be allowed to focus on patient care and safety rather than pander to a delusion.

Remember these people are dealing with serious things like administering correct doses of medication which could have very serious consequences for a mistake. We should let them do their jobs not force ideological nonsense onto them.

I watched her interview and I thought she may have got in trouble for it.. I am an RCN member and have contacted them to say they were unreasonable about Sandie Peggie. Jennifer was treated terribly but in my opinion she went to the press with too much patient detail . Don't want to sound like I am defending the RCN, I need to research other unions and leave them as the RCN are useless.

So true. Additionally in my NWLondon hospital the staff are from such diverse backgrounds, often with English as a second language. It is vital that all communication is easy to understand, unambiguous, factual and as uncomplicated as possible.

I agree. NMC also need to be clearer about the difference between "misgendering" by not using preferred pronouns (where someone feels that is lying) and a nurse deliberately using gendered pronouns someone finds upsetting.

From those who have been following this for longer than I have, I get the impression both sorts of misgendering are no longer being seen automatically as harassment? I.e. posts getting deleted on Mumsnet.

That said NMC requires nurses to be kind. The rest of us are under no such requirement!

This really is utterly ridiculous. The nurse can refer to male genitals but cannot say "he"? How the heck have we reached this place?

Saying he was male ie using he to denote his sex is “about biology” to 90% of the population.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what you are referring to.

"I honestly do not know how she could possibly describe a urological /catheter problem to a doctor on the phone without specifying the sex of the patient."

Was the comment I was referring to. As can be seen, if wasn't about biology.

Evidently yes, he/she pronouns are generally used when discussing a patient with others or writing a report. I'm not sure what your point is.

Well that was still about the phone call because she would not be calling him he to his face would she. That's not how our language works.

You just demonstrated that with your quote " I cannot refer to you" see? She said 'you'

Try again.

As well this wasn't her explanation to the patient, according to her own lawyers, after patient was angry about overheard being called "Mr X".

"Jennifer politely said: ‘I am sorry I cannot refer to you as her or she, as it’s against my faith and Christian values but I can call you by your name."

So it wasn't a case about talking about male bits on the phone. Also not very efficient if patients get very angry and then don't listen 🤷‍♀️

You would have every conversation about every patient being a game of hints and leading questions. Every patient because the others on the call have to ask the trick questions every time in case this is one of those times.

It may be a fun game and you could include it at the next dinner party you throw, but keep it well away from hospitals.

Also that is a breach anyway as by joining in the hinting game the nurse has revealed to the doctor that the patient is a man anyway and must be punished.

Role playing games should be left at home where they won't endanger patients and the careers of those trying to help them.

Edit: quote dropped off, was replying to post about no definition of misgendering.

Yes that's a very good point. I would prefer what misgendering is to be hammered out outside of court though honestly as it costs a fortune and normal people get caught up in it.

I am aware it was discussed in some degree in Forstater v Centre for Global Development Europe and Forstater used "preferred pronouns" sometimes.

Even if it was agreed there's a general right to use "real sex" pronouns it might still be acceptable for employers to require employees to use "preferred" or "neutral" where there is a perceived need. The later avoiding untruths.

There's quite an interesting philosophical article on here about it: <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2024.11.03-091945/philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/2024.11.03-091945/philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue/

Which tries to distinguish "equality" claims from "rights" claims. It's a bit unfair to Catholics but nm. However doesn't extend to medical ethics.

Although gender-critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act, this does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity.

Yes it does. The only exception would be if it was part of a campaign of harassment. e.g, shouting it through his letterbox at 3am.

I have no intention of calling a man a woman. Pronouns are part of my language not the subject. You don't have your own.

TBH on a busy ward I wonder how many nurses would perform the verbal gymnastics to do all that. I suppose these days they have to.

@FlirtsWithRhinos I have no problem with anyone discussing pronouns, what I do have a problem is being compared to someone telling someone who is anorexic that they are fat or someone who is psychotic that they can fly. Yes I do find that inappropriate and offensive and frankly a pretty shit argument.

And I haven't even said what I think the right answer is. I've raised a question about whether medical professionals are or should be allowed to use "true sex" pronouns when referring to their patients. If they don't agree should they be able to "misgender"? As far as I'm aware it hasn't really been discussed in that context.

I have also raised concerns about what this nurse has actually been suspended for. According to the news articles it was for breaching patient confidentiality not for her religious beliefs about sex.

I support women's rights and same sex spaces without jumping on every possible court case about it, not least because some of them might actually end up being something different or have concerning implications about i.e. bringing religion into medical practice.

It's not difficult: the nurse can just describe the anatomy to which the catheter is inserted. In the event that a (non-catheterised) problem is in a part of the body that both males and females have, the other people in the discussion can ask if a relevant sex specific body part is involved (relevant = may alter treatment decisions) and the nurse can answer with a simple "yes" or "no". The nurse could also volunteer clinically appropriate information by saying something like "...and problem is not currently presenting in the patients' penis".

There is no need to mention "he" or "she" and the nurse could preserve both their and the patients sensibilities; the nurse knows this (or should do).

I am sure the full details will be revealed. By the details that are currently in the public domain that scenario is not what happened prior to the report to the regulator.
The NMC referral as it currently stands is adjacent to a Minority Report scenario. Itself like the workplace that Hadley Freeman (?) left at The Guardian.

Are you guilty?' said Winston.
'Of course I'm guilty!' cried Parsons with a servile glance at the telescreen. 'You don't think the Party would arrest an innocent man, do you?' His frog-like face grew calmer, and even took on a slightly sanctimonious expression. 'Thoughtcrime is a dreadful thing, old man,' he said sententiously. 'It's insidious. It can get hold of you without your even knowing it. Do you know how it got hold of me? In my sleep! Yes, that's a fact. There I was, working away, trying to do my bit -- never knew I had any bad stuff in my mind at all. And then I started talking in my sleep. Do you know what they heard me saying?'
He sank his voice, like someone who is obliged for medical reasons to utter an obscenity.
"Down with Big Brother!" Yes, I said that! Said it over and over again, it seems. Between you and me, old man, I'm glad they got me before it went any further. Do you know what I'm going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal? "Thank you," I'm going to say, "thank you for saving me before it was too late."
'Who denounced you?' said Winston.
'It was my little daughter,' said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride. 'She listened at the keyhole. Heard what I was saying, and nipped off to the patrols the very next day. Pretty smart for a nipper of seven, eh? I don't bear her any grudge for it. In fact I'm proud of her. It shows I brought her up in the right spirit, anyway.' [George Orwell, 1984.]

https://www.abhafoundation.org/assets/books/html/1984/152.html

Afaik, there is nothing in law that defines ‘misgendering’.

Especially in light of the Supreme Court clarification this policy appears to be utterly unlawful. Maybe it needs testing in court.

I can't speak for Eresh but one of my close family had a severe mental illness that ultimately lead to suicide.

Am I allowed an opinion on pronouns now?

My opinion is this.

It is absolutely offensive to me as a woman to pay lip service to belief system that claims the fundamental difference between men and women in this world is not our bodies and the differences in social expectations and experiences that this leads to, but simply that our minds are different?!?

So different apparently that none of the consequences of our bodies and the embodied experiences of women are as significant as a man's self image based on - well, based on whatever-the-hell-it-is he thinks it is to be us, which seems to be anything from a fashion choice to a sexual preference to a rejection of masculinity, but sure as hell is nothing I recognise as a fundamental source for my own experiences of womanhood.

So you know, if my views drive away women who accept the premise that some men are closer to women than other men because of how they think, I'm afraid I'm ok with that.

Because if they care more about offending such men than respecting the reality of women and of women's lives, I can't see how we can ever be on the same road.

Often in NHS Equality Docs and Policy not sure which Trust. R.e. NMC it's on website:

A registered nurse deliberately misgenders a transgender person attending a diabetes clinic, despite that person repeatedly asking them to refer to them using the correct gender. The transgender person makes a formal complaint to the nurse’s employer. When challenged about her behaviour, the nurse says that she was acting in accordance with her belief that human beings cannot change their sex or gender.

We are likely to take action against this nurse. Persistently and deliberately misgendering a trans person is contrary to the requirements of the Code to treat people with kindness and respect. The nurse’s beliefs do not justify a clear departure from the provisions of the Code. Although gender-critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act, this does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity.9

From www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/understanding-fitness-to-practise/fitness-to-practise-allegations/misconduct/freedom-of-expression-and-fitness-to-practise/