The disgraceful RCN and Nurse Jennifer Melle

Respectfully, I have to disagree.

Whilst I may support this nurse and I absolutely support using correct pronouns usage in a clinical context, I couldn't agree with a nurse taking a family aside after a death and repeatedly using he instead of she even when that caused further distress to the family for e.g.

Sometimes, you just have to crack on with the job regardless of your own views.

I guess I'm not as much of an absolutist as some though.

A question for @BeLemonNow . Do you think it is safe and acceptable for an entire medical team to refer to an inpatient who is biologically male, as she/a woman/a female patient and have them on a female ward? What about their hospital notes that all staff record and refer to? Are you not concerned that errors in prescribing or requesting of tests could occur due to misunderstanding. Have you been an inpatient in a busy hospital where you could be cared for by 30 or more different professionals during your stay. I can't fathom the idea that the person's true biological sex must not be spoken of. It is delusional and dangerous.

No I'm literally following your argument about not supporting patient's "delusions" in a medical setting.

For that to hold, it has to include all "delusions" that aren't supported by science including religion.

You compared using someone's preferred pronouns to agreeing that an anorexic is fat. That's a bad argument. Obviously the latter is directly harmful and may even be fatal.

Exactly. It’s a power play. Any thought to how a black nurse might feel being forced to go along with the coercive play acting of an abusive and racist sex offender?

Benefits of using correct pronouns - reminder to everyone of the persons sex so that they get the correct treatment for the immediate problem?

I don’t think people should ever be able to expect that others will conceal their sex as if it’s some kind of privileged information and I find some of your expectations unreasonable. And so I support people being able to conscientiously object to using wrong sex pronouns in all cases, personally.

Yes, again that doesn't kill them and they have that choice to take surgery risks. Anorexia kills.

R.e. the God delusion, fetching someone a priest might lead to them refusing medical care so what's the difference with that delusion?

It also seems different in a medical profession than in i.e. private family where the former there's a need to respect beliefs.

Do you really think using correct sex pronouns in an unrelated medical clinic is likely to change their mind about them wanting surgery?

If anything I imagine it would make it more likely to get physical intervention to "pass".

R.e. downsides of medical professionals using correct sex and/or not using preferred pronouns:

• causing substantial distress to transgender individuals including at their most vulnerable/ sick / dying

• preventing transgender from seeking medical care until dire / an emergency

• potentially "outing" transgender status to others who may not be aware adding to the above issues.

I would note in the case of the Christian nurse this would include refusing to use non binary pronouns to a female feminist who wants a less gendered society.

As mentioned there's a distinction between medicine where the first responsibility is to the patient and elsewhere.

I.e. I might call someone fat but I wouldn't expect a nurse to use that word to describe a relative however true it is! As it's offensive and uncaring.

People are free to prop up other people’s delusions and beliefs. They shouldn’t be compelled to, and others are free to disapprove of either choice.

So could pretending someone was the opposite sex in some circumstances.

Shocking story. The man was in hospital for a urinary problem, so it was essential to share his biological sex with the doctor. The anatomy of the urinary tracts in men and women are different and prostate enlargement and resultant retention are a consideration for men.

Well yeah.. he's got a dick

@FlirtsWithRhinos Because going along with someone's anorexia can kill them. That's where that leads.

@BeLemonNow

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that using someone's preferred pronouns is analogous with i.e. agreeing an anorexia looks fat.

Why?

"Preferred pronouns" is a euphemism for "sexist beliefs".

Women should not be expected to condone sexist beliefs that are socially harmful to us.

It's not just trans people who matter in society.

Absolutely agree. The sexism and possibly racism against SN Melle is shocking. I really hope the RCN gets dragged over the coals for this and all the other gender woo nonsense they've supported )eg Sandie Peggie, Darlington nurses).

How on earth are Drs and nurse supposed to do their jobs correctly and safely, if they can't use clear, biologically accurate language to describe patients and their health issues?

Okay, no supporting delusions of any kind by your view. So someone on their deathbed requesting a priest for last rites should be told there's no biological basis for life after death?

Someone dying who sees a loved one should be told about the biological basis of near death hallucinations and that it doesn't mean that they will still be with them?

She spread nothing to the press. She is being punished for using medically accurate language when discussing a patient with a doctor.

Medically accurate language, including accurate sex descriptors, is critically important because parameters such as kidney function vary between the sexes.

But using medically accurate language in this context is being described as 'outing' the trans-identifying man and this beating GDPR.

More evidence that the GRA is not fit for purpose and Hans the very individuals it was designed to serve.

A trans person who lives openly as both the sex they are and the gender they feel has no fear of "outing".

The reality is that trans "women" are no closer to being women than any other men.

It is onlt those trans people who do not live openly as trans who could be "outed", so it is their own choice to misrepresent themselves that created this "outing" risk.

If someone chooses to live their life deceiving others that it up to them.

But their choice to lie to people who trust them does not create a moral obligation that others must also lie, perhaps about something they feel strongly about, perhaps even though to condone it damages them, and it should not create a legal one.

@ArabellaScott having had serious mental illness, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that using someone's preferred pronouns is analogous with i.e. agreeing an anorexia looks fat.

Anorexia is often fatal and any pro-anorexic from a nurse would be in clear breach of their responsibility for patient care. Similar with your comparisons to psychosis.

Accurate information about their biology or sex is one thing, but their sex or biology may not be relevant to their complaint or they may be talking to the patients family or friends. Or writing a report copied to the patient etc. etc.