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Original poster

Trans identifying male Harriet Haynes loses court case to play in women's pool

116 replies

ArabellaScott · 01/08/2025 12:13

A great win for Lynn Pinches!

Congratulations to her, and the EBPF.

'CASE DISMISSED! The case against EBPF by Harriet Haynes. '

Haynes to pay costs.

Earlier articles:

Males banned from women's pool:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c1k4gd2vge9o

Haynes sues:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2025/04/08/transgender-pool-player-harriet-hayes-suing-governing-body/

Pool Federation:

https://ebpf.uk/

Judgement:

https://jrlevins.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/K01CT207-judgment-1-8-25-handed-down.pdf

'CONCLUSION
267 Having come to the end of what is essentially a long footnote to this judgment, I reiterate that in my view the effect of the decision in FWS is that the claim fails at the first hurdle because there has been no gender reassignment discrimination. The claim must therefore be dismissed. '

A player takes a shot during a game of pool

Transgender women banned from female pool category

The Ultimate Pool Group (UPG) ban transgender women from female category after landmark UK Supreme Court ruling that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c1k4gd2vge9o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 02/08/2025 14:00

This is fantastic news. I really liked the part where the defendants weren't responsible for the TW's hurty feels caused by randoms on social media. Sanity has prevailed here.

Ariana12 · 02/08/2025 00:04

TheAutumnCrow · 01/08/2025 14:00

I don’t see how any week can be, if she’s going to carry on pretending that the FWS Supreme Court ruling is just a little thing in Scotland to do with public boards.

Show quote history

Looks like FWS is going to intervene in the Peggie tribunal after all the nonsense propositions from Respondents' counsel about the Supreme Court judgement being contentious and/or irrelevant.
forwomen.scot/31/07/2025/employment-tribunal-intervention-peggie/?s=09

ILikeDungs · 01/08/2025 23:17

RMW and JR. Just...thank you.

From the bottom of my heart. Thank you for showing in court that men who claim they are women do not belong in women's sport (Haynes), and that women can have independent thoughts (Forstater, not Forshatter), and should not be shut down in the workplace (Bailey), or in women's changing rooms (Sandie Peggie, not Miss Piggie). You have worked so hard and your struggles have been entirely fruitless but have shone a bright bright light. Again, thank you so much and keep it up.
.

LadyCankleOfGrantham · 01/08/2025 22:59

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 20:09

Odd how he and the other bloke never for a moment considered that they might be robbing some women of an identity as pool champions.

He also shouldn’t have even been trying to get in the tournament in the first place - he’s a professional and his professional contract doesn’t allow this. The place he sued is a non profit. It reeks of entitlement

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/08/2025 20:52

My identity of being able to access my Amazon Prime abroad without fiddling with the VPN settings has been cruelly taken from me 😞

WandaSiri · 01/08/2025 20:44

The chemist was closed for lunch earlier, thus robbing me of my identity of nipping down to the chemist to get my prescription.
I'm raging.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/08/2025 20:40

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 19:18

Oh dear…
The claim added that her “identity of playing pool in the female category” had been “taken from her”.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/transgender-pool-player-loses-discrimination-145519141.html

Oh no. How sad. Never mind.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 20:09

Odd how he and the other bloke never for a moment considered that they might be robbing some women of an identity as pool champions.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 01/08/2025 19:51

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 19:18

Oh dear…
The claim added that her “identity of playing pool in the female category” had been “taken from her”.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/transgender-pool-player-loses-discrimination-145519141.html

He'll just have 'reframe his trauma' won't he.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2025 19:49

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 19:18

Oh dear…
The claim added that her “identity of playing pool in the female category” had been “taken from her”.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/transgender-pool-player-loses-discrimination-145519141.html

A very specific identity. As based on as little reality as any male person who has claimed they are female.

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/08/2025 19:39

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 19:18

Oh dear…
The claim added that her “identity of playing pool in the female category” had been “taken from her”.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/transgender-pool-player-loses-discrimination-145519141.html

Awe bless.

if he just tries a wee bit harder he might be able to succeed against other men.

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/08/2025 19:38

Other physical advantages men have over women in pool include:
height
hip to table ratio (also height but specific to pool/snooker etc)
reach over table
longer fingers/bigger hands
hip angle
flat chests can mean different angles over the table too.

all in addition to power & strength that gives a massive break advantage.

just off top of my head.

DiscoBob · 01/08/2025 19:14

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 18:08

In the bbc link it says there already is:
“The body said that an open category "will continue to be open to all regardless of sex".

Show quote history

That's good. So he was far from banned. He could've been in two of the three categories.

LadyCankleOfGrantham · 01/08/2025 18:46

The judgement is interesting. I’m pleased the judge went into detail as to why Harriet as a man would have a physical advantage in the game.

CarobBean72 · 01/08/2025 18:18

Llamasarellovely · 01/08/2025 15:35

RMW and JR - a winning combo for the GC side 😃

The dream team.

for us!

Charabanc · 01/08/2025 18:13

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 18:08

In the bbc link it says there already is:
“The body said that an open category "will continue to be open to all regardless of sex".

Show quote history

The TIMS won't want to play in that category. No validation, innit?
swirls spinny skirt

Charabanc · 01/08/2025 18:11

ArabellaScott · 01/08/2025 18:03

The BBC has yet to report.

The Independent has gone with 'Banned for being trans' as a headline, and the article is heavily skewed with sympathy for males.

'Matt Champ, senior associate at Colman Coyle, who represented Ms Haynes, said: "We and our client are naturally disappointed with the court’s decision that it was bound to follow the much-criticised Supreme Court case of For Women Scotland and dismiss our client’s case for gender reassignment discrimination.
“However, whilst the judge dismissed the case based upon For Women Scotland, we take some solace in the fact that he found that, if he was not bound by that decision, he would have agreed with our client and found that the need to show that exclusion was ‘necessary’ so as to comply with the Equality Act 2010 would have been on the defendants, that was a hotly contested issue at trial.
“More importantly, the judge also found that if he were required to decide it, he would have found that the EBPF’s actions were not capable of being a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ and so the defendants’ secondary case would have failed. But, obviously because of the judge’s reliance on For Women Scotland, the claim still had to be dismissed. We are reflecting on the judgment and our next steps which will include whether or not we appeal."'

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-pool-player-ban-harriet-haynes-b2800323.html

Ha ha ha. "If it wasn't for the law, we would have won!" 😂

"The Independent" isn't a newspaper any more, just a tedious website. No more worthy of attention than Gay Times.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2025 18:08

DiscoBob · 01/08/2025 16:58

Well I guess there could be a mixed section in pool. My female mate used to wipe the table with all the men in the pub team, and we went to play other pubs too. She was the only woman but won nearly every game.

But yeah, in many sports it's to gain advantage. In some it is just to take over something because you wish you were part of it when you're not and can't ever be.

Show quote history

In the bbc link it says there already is:
“The body said that an open category "will continue to be open to all regardless of sex".

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 01/08/2025 18:03

The BBC has yet to report.

The Independent has gone with 'Banned for being trans' as a headline, and the article is heavily skewed with sympathy for males.

'Matt Champ, senior associate at Colman Coyle, who represented Ms Haynes, said: "We and our client are naturally disappointed with the court’s decision that it was bound to follow the much-criticised Supreme Court case of For Women Scotland and dismiss our client’s case for gender reassignment discrimination.
“However, whilst the judge dismissed the case based upon For Women Scotland, we take some solace in the fact that he found that, if he was not bound by that decision, he would have agreed with our client and found that the need to show that exclusion was ‘necessary’ so as to comply with the Equality Act 2010 would have been on the defendants, that was a hotly contested issue at trial.
“More importantly, the judge also found that if he were required to decide it, he would have found that the EBPF’s actions were not capable of being a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ and so the defendants’ secondary case would have failed. But, obviously because of the judge’s reliance on For Women Scotland, the claim still had to be dismissed. We are reflecting on the judgment and our next steps which will include whether or not we appeal."'

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-pool-player-ban-harriet-haynes-b2800323.html

OP posts:
Manybutterflywings · 01/08/2025 17:48

Section 19. Sport of the Gender Recognition Law refers to unfairness in participation of trans identifying individuals. I don’t understand why this has been persistently ignored:

(4)A sport is a gender-affected sport if the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one gender would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other gender as competitors in events involving the sport.

In any event the recognition of sex based legislation seems to made the Gender Recognition irrelevant. Hooray!

NotfinanciallyresponsibleforyouSadTimes · 01/08/2025 17:37

BezMills · 01/08/2025 17:20

If Harriet has trouble competing in the male bracket, I dunno what to say except maybe just practise more?

Absolutely! It is amazing how many mediocre male athletes decide they are women and suddenly are winners and medalists because they are in the womens category- cycling, swimming, even bloody Park Run results are dominated by TWs

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/08/2025 17:26

Claimant tried to argue that the correct comparator for a TW was a W.

Judge “err no this is wrong. Sex is a material difference”

judge rules firmly against TWAW.

Women - we exist 🤩

Rightsraptor · 01/08/2025 17:20

I was reading that thinking 'is it that Ms White and that Ms Russell? And indeed it was.

I hope this will help JR now accept that she has totally misunderstood the extent of the FWS judgment.

BezMills · 01/08/2025 17:20

If Harriet has trouble competing in the male bracket, I dunno what to say except maybe just practise more?