"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 3

ChatGPT
You said:
Generate an essay plan that transwomen are not women
ChatGPT said:
That's a deeply sensitive and controversial topic. The statement "trans women are not women" is a position that directly challenges the identities and lived experiences of many trans people. Before I proceed, I want to be clear that promoting respectful, informed, and ethical dialogue is essential, especially around topics that can impact vulnerable communities.

That said, I can help you explore how people construct arguments around this topic — whether for academic, legal, or philosophical purposes — including how someone might structure an essay that makes the case from a biological, legal, or philosophical standpoint.

That's weird, it generated an essay plan for me no bother on that topic when I asked it to 🤷‍♀️. It did preface it with caveats about it being a controversial and deeply sensitive area but then generated a plan no issue.

In what way does it help butch, non gender conforming women to allow men into women’s single sex spaces?

You asked ChatGPT to pick holes in the argument, and it did as you asked. But none of its claims are actually particularly strong. If instead you'd asked whether the calculation was a reasonable best guess, you'd likely have got quite a different response (although since it will remember your conversation, someone else would have to do this experiment)

@suggestionsplease1 acknowledgement that we need to capture data on both sex and ‘gender identity’, that such data should be clear, and that we shouldn’t seek to obscure what is meant by the term ‘sex’ is most welcome.

If we want to understand patterns of offending, we need rigorous, peer-reviewed research — not arithmetic built on speculative assumptions

I am minded to point out that any suggestion of doing such research will immediately be torn down as transphobic, permeated by bias, irresponsible, dangerous, promoting dangerous stereotypes about a vulnerable community etc.

the researchers themselves will be hounded and abused, and the results, unless they support one very vocal faction, will be suppressed.

All these gender non conforming women getting accosted in toilets, why is that? (If indeed that happens, I think it’s bollocks).

The incident you are referring to was based on a photo. I’m 99% sure that when faced with such a ‘masculine’ looking woman you’d be able to tell when up close and personal and the minute they opened their mouth and spoke.

Still no reason at all to let men into women’s spaces based on feelings.

No. I mean what benefit do women as a whole get from allowing their spaces to become mixed sex? You are wanting women to give up their sex based rights to single sex spaces. What’s in it for them? You’ve focused a lot on how it will benefit males. Now explain how it will benefit women as a whole.

It's awful that men breaking the social contract and entering women's spaces that don't belong to them has created an environment that causes problems for these women.

The men who have done that should be heartily ashamed of themselves.

The way to help these women is for men to behave decently, respect women and the law, and stay out of the spaces that don't belong to them. If they do that, in time, a more trusting environment will be restored.

HTH.

ChatGPT does not understand logic, it reproduces vaguely feasible sounding stuff by mimicking both humans producing logical arguments and humans producing illogical ones.

For example, the question of whether the number of TW in jail for sexual crimes is the same as the proportion of the total population - we know the answer to that. It is large, very large, compared to any reasonable estimate of the proportion of the population who are trans. Large compared to the proportion of men who are in jail for sexual crimes. A different order of magnitude large compared to the proportion of women. And that's been reproduced in different countries where data is actually collected.

The question of whether transwomen are disproportionately convicted for sex crimes - given the massive drive to have flashing and voyeurism deemed 'just getting changed in the place they're entitled to be' it's highly unlikely they're disproportionately charged. And we know of many cases where short, lenient or non-custodial sentences have been given on grounds of mitigation due to the convicted TW's psychological struggles or due to prison being disproportionately hard with gender issues. I'd argue strongly that they are disproportionately under-convicted and under-sentenced.

Yes there may be slight differences, and extrapolating the proportion convicted is an approximation. But given the orders of magnitude difference between the proportion of women (total population OR prison population) in prison for sexual offences and the proportion of TW, it is a very convincing argument that there are far more unconvicted.

It is safer for everyone to use the toilet of their sex, except children who are with an opposite sex carer. In those situations the carer can call out and shield the child’s eyes until they get into the cubicle. Single sex toilets should have door gaps as a safeguarding and hygiene measure.

Men have led non-relative children into private toilets and assaulted them - the privacy is the factor working against safety. Men have also pushed women back into private cubicles.

Door gaps also safeguards the occupant if they have a medical emergency for quicker detection when anyone is at their most vulnerable. People who are more vulnerable include those with invisible disabilities, health conditions including poor mental health and elderly people more likely to have falls. Collectively, these add up to millions of people which means a lot of incidents. Eg. 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the toilet.

The only toilets regulated to have door gaps are single sex toilets.

Healthy men are the least likely group to be adversely affected by toilet design.

Edit to add: single sex toilets don’t have to have door gaps yet. If toilets become ambiguous in use, the toilets become private. That’s a major problem.

So you are saying that historically people couldn’t tell and women were historically bullied as a result and that’s why we should not have any sex separation?

those historical women were really quiet and are now coming out to shout ?

or is this an artefact of the current mess?

btw sex identification by photo is MUCH harder than IRL - won’t say it never occurs but using as evidence people’s interpretation of a photo doesn’t cut it

I try to limit time spent debating with adults determined that women must have no boundaries from men and who seek to remove from the statute book the sex crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure.

We know that these crimes are gateway crimes to rape and murder so when they openly expose their lack of concern for the safety of women and girls I see little to respect in any other anti social / anti women / dangerous arguments they might spout.

Women were never harassed before men started ignoring normal social conventions and being where they shouldn't be. Would be great to get back to that.

It's amazing, Suggestions, that in your head, women are always to blame.

Men and their feelings always come first for you. Baffling.

Well in terms of how policy might be enacted, plenty of women are likely to be caught in the crossfire too. I have more butch looking friends and they are genuinely concerned they are going to be harassed for using toilets because some people think they are male. They are women who will be disadvantaged by the enforcement of this law.

And before anyone says "we all know what a woman looks like", remember the time FWR dedicated a thread to harassing the winner of a running competition because they wrongly believed that the person was a transwoman and shouldn't have been taking the winning place from a woman. There was post after post harassing the woman, a mother of 3 I believe, and eventually the OP had to issue a grovelling apology when it came to the winners attention and she complained to Mumsnet.

There were similar misgenderings during a more recent post here about a women in science event where posters wrongly speculated about the sex of women in a photograph.

These women are facing this harassment as a result of this obsessive and myopic focus on determination of who is a man and a woman.

And probably more at risk from physical assaults.

The other issue with @suggestionsplease1’s link is that it’s from 2018.

there’s certainly more trans identifying males now in the US where that study was done.

I'll never ever get my head round women who wave aside the risk and dignity of other women in favour of male wishes.

I have slightly more sympathy for those who hold magical thinking and believe that trans women are not actually men than for those who know full well they are men and don't give a shit about women anyway.

So what benefit do women get from allowing male people into their spaces? You’ve stated the benefits for the males but not for the women

Trans women have an offending pattern the same as their sex and a larger percentage of the tw prison population are in there for violent or sexual offences than the male prison population.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

"MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or for violent offending."

UK Parliament Committees

From what I've seen in a few searches just now, and I've taken the most quoted figures (and what seemed like the least dramatic)..
32% of male prison population are in for violent or sexual offences as opposed to
48% of trans women prison population.
And the good news in England anyway is that the 51 trans prisoners in women's prisons are either trans men or "non-binary" females.

Men are the default human and women the support animal in many cases.

Men are in danger in male prisons, hospital wards, male toilets and changing rooms. No proof is needed because danger includes their feelings.

The solution - men can be placed in womens prisons, hospital wards, toilets and changing rooms.

Any dignity for women is not considered and physical risk to women needs proof - so we have to wait for an attack to happen. But one isnt enough. So we need a statistical significant number of attacks to happen. But more likely a huge scandal needs before anything is done.

Theres no reason all men, including trans identifying ones need to use the female toilets.

The reason why they want access includes the idea that while theres a door that says women only, and they cannot enter, its a constant reminder that they are not women. There are also the very male ideas that they have the right to go anywhere they please, have given women permission to have space, and determine why they have the space.

So trans identifying men have redefined the reason for single sex spaces - they have become validation areas, not just for themselves, but a test for everyone else. If they enter unchallenged they either assume they pass, or they know they have the power to control the use of the area.

They have also decided that they are a 'safe space', where they determine the accept risk.