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Original poster

Where does this slug fest leave us? What is at the other side of this?

82 replies

Taytoface · 24/07/2025 22:46

I have followed all the tribunals closely. This one has been the one that more than any other has gotten right to the core of the issue, that it is not fair or lawful or reasonable to expect everyone to accept that it is possible to change sex, and that it is entirely reasonable for a woman in encountering a male in what she could reasonably expect as a SS space to object to his presence regardless of his professed gender identity.

It has also exposed the industrial machinery that has been deployed to silence women and exert maximum punishment on those who speak up. It is fucking horrifying.

I keep wondering where this leaves is in moving forward. There has to be some non negotiables. Single sex spaces, where women are vulnerable and/ or in a state of undress has to be one of them. There has to be an acceptance that TW will be excluded from some spaces, because they are male.

On the other foot, I do think that despite me not believing that men can be women, I would respect preferred pronouns unless and until being clear about sex is important. In my office based professional life, sex is largely irrelevant. I will address people as they request. This is a courtesy I am happy to grant, and goes some way to helping trans and non binary colleagues feel comfortable in the workplace, something I think everyone is entitled to.

I am also very wary of some of the rhetoric I have seen in these threads. Ascribing really sinister pseudo psychological motivations of some of the people involved (e.g. is KS in love with BU???), digging into family backgrounds, scrabbling around to acsribe the worst possible motivations for people on Dr Us side. Granted, this has been evident in spades on the other side, but fuck me it is grim. All of it.

Scorched Earth leaves little room for regrowth. I am really struggling to see how yet another inevitable and well deserved legal victory will actually get us to a place where we can figure this shit out. What is the mechanism for that? It certainly won't be the courts.

OP posts:
JoyDivision79 · 25/07/2025 00:38

Reading more, seeing these cases and truly seeing now how dangerous this all is; bekind is absolutely out the window for me now too. By that, I won't use any preferred pronouns and will face the consequences.

I have done a complete 180 thanks to MN. Most people I know, I believe, won't fully appreciate the scale of all this, even with these cases being brought to the fore. I'd still have to be cautious in conversation, knowing this.

eatfigs · 25/07/2025 00:30

I am really struggling to see how yet another inevitable and well deserved legal victory will actually get us to a place where we can figure this shit out. What is the mechanism for that?

Having such a high-profile tribunal where employees are being publicly grilled on their failures makes an excellent deterrent for other organisations thinking of doing the same. With the FWS decision and now the Sandie Peggie tribunal, there will be a lot of orgs hastily rewriting their policies.

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 23:48

Taytoface · 24/07/2025 22:46

I have followed all the tribunals closely. This one has been the one that more than any other has gotten right to the core of the issue, that it is not fair or lawful or reasonable to expect everyone to accept that it is possible to change sex, and that it is entirely reasonable for a woman in encountering a male in what she could reasonably expect as a SS space to object to his presence regardless of his professed gender identity.

It has also exposed the industrial machinery that has been deployed to silence women and exert maximum punishment on those who speak up. It is fucking horrifying.

I keep wondering where this leaves is in moving forward. There has to be some non negotiables. Single sex spaces, where women are vulnerable and/ or in a state of undress has to be one of them. There has to be an acceptance that TW will be excluded from some spaces, because they are male.

On the other foot, I do think that despite me not believing that men can be women, I would respect preferred pronouns unless and until being clear about sex is important. In my office based professional life, sex is largely irrelevant. I will address people as they request. This is a courtesy I am happy to grant, and goes some way to helping trans and non binary colleagues feel comfortable in the workplace, something I think everyone is entitled to.

I am also very wary of some of the rhetoric I have seen in these threads. Ascribing really sinister pseudo psychological motivations of some of the people involved (e.g. is KS in love with BU???), digging into family backgrounds, scrabbling around to acsribe the worst possible motivations for people on Dr Us side. Granted, this has been evident in spades on the other side, but fuck me it is grim. All of it.

Scorched Earth leaves little room for regrowth. I am really struggling to see how yet another inevitable and well deserved legal victory will actually get us to a place where we can figure this shit out. What is the mechanism for that? It certainly won't be the courts.

I disagree. The courts have been the only way to get a fair hearing at all.

Remember that Stonewall Law has been brought in without any debate and there is a pattern of Labour sneaking in the trans supportive legislation rather than having the debate out in the open. In 2004 the GRA was not mentioned in the Queen's Speech, but the very next day the Bill started to be debated (ETA I don't object to the Bill but I don't like the cloak and dagger). In 2009 the DfH published guidance on single sex spaces in the NHS with an appendix which allowed self ID - but it isn't at all clear how this document was approved for publication...

The Guardian has written nothing about the Peggie case since 16th July
The BBC are running headlines which bear no resemblance to what is happening in the Tribunal room.

One side has had a good run since about 2002 but their streak is over and the readjustment is happening. And it will probably take many more court cases to get the basic rules of play agreed.

Hopefully in about 2-3 years we will get to a place where we can discuss it openly -and the left leaning Press are prepared to write in reasonably open terms - and come to a decent consensus. But while we aren't allowed to discuss, there won't be any solutions will there?

WithSilverBells · 24/07/2025 23:41

I might have agreed with you a few years ago, OP, but it is clear now that this is a strategic attack on women's rights, 'woman' as a sex-class, safeguarding of children and the democratic process. The #bekind weapon was specifically developed to target women and turn them into accomplices in their own defeat.
You are asking for some version of #bekind, but I am done with that. Trans-identified people should have the same employment, housing etc rights as everyone else, but no more. No compelled speech, no forced teaming, no 'gender affirming care' on the NHS and no sacred caste.
You are wrong about scorched earth; regrowth always happens. However, next time we will all be far less 'kind' and far more informed, cautious and battle-hardened.

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 23:25

Scorched Earth leaves little room for regrowth.

How would this regrowth work? NHS Fife (and in particular the personnel who created the witchhunt) do not appear to feel that they have done anything wrong. They feel that they are righteous. Even if Sandie wins, there will be a narrative that they did it 'all for the best'. Any attempt at a golden bridge would be scorned.

It essentially has to go scorched earth to ensure that women can't be bullied into silence anymore. They have to obey the law. That's it.

And regarding pronouns, once upon a time I would have been 'kind'. But there's been too much demanded of women, too many boundaries pushed. To quote NC 'no thank you'.

zanahoria · 24/07/2025 23:06

ifIwerenotanandroid · 24/07/2025 22:53

The courts are useful for bringing this stuff to people's attention, making it OK to discuss it, helping everyone to understand what's going on - & for making & clarifying the law.

Back in the day, people predicted that it would take court cases before anything started to change. This is just a part of the process. It's put an end to 'no debate'. So now (or after a few more cases) we can have the necessary discussion - if all parties are willing to have it.

The hogwash was never going to stand up in court, it amazes me they even try.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 24/07/2025 22:53

The courts are useful for bringing this stuff to people's attention, making it OK to discuss it, helping everyone to understand what's going on - & for making & clarifying the law.

Back in the day, people predicted that it would take court cases before anything started to change. This is just a part of the process. It's put an end to 'no debate'. So now (or after a few more cases) we can have the necessary discussion - if all parties are willing to have it.