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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Katy Montgomerie

318 replies

niadainud · 24/07/2025 19:35

Just wondering what people think about her. I was sent a link by someone, and I do occasionally try to watch the views of pro-trans people for "balance", but I really struggled with this one.

I find her excessively pleased with herself, incoherent, ageist and of course prone to flinging around insults such as "TERF", "transphone" and "bigot" every few minutes.

I'm not quite sure what gives her the confidence to "diss" people like Helen Joyce, Richard Dawkins et al, as if they're idiots and she is some sort of intellectual giant.

She says things like this: "The UK's Supreme Court ruled on "biological sex", but they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The "Gender Critical" position on biology is just factually wrong. Finally hundreds of experts in the field come together to call out all this anti-science rubbish"

Other than being trans herself, does she have any justifiable claim to the superior knowledge she purports to have?

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OldCrone · 24/07/2025 21:17

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 21:14

😂 @ArabellaScott

I know absolutely nothing about technology tbh but I notice the link is to a google doc, I'm sure someone mentioned on the NHS Fife threads that some people might not want to click on those for some reason?

I don't normally click on them, but I didn't notice that was a google doc until after I clicked on it. I won't make that mistake again.

OldCrone · 24/07/2025 21:16

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 24/07/2025 20:38

The number of times you see people being interviewed and asked, for example, to define a woman. They way they squirm and stutter is just embarrassing, but I'm sure it's disingenuous 90% of the time and they just know that they can't say what a woman is without totally losing face.

And anyone who says they are going to transition to being a woman, and then alters their body to appear female, knows full well that they think women are female. Unless this is just a huge massive coincidence??

This is what I don't understand about trans identified people who deny the existence of biological sex.

If biological sex didn't exist, trans people couldn't exist because there would be nothing to transition to or from.

TheRoundestRobin · 24/07/2025 21:14

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:32

Jeez.

The number of times you see people being interviewed and asked, for example, to define a woman. They way they squirm and stutter is just embarrassing, but I'm sure it's disingenuous 90% of the time and they just know that they can't say what a woman is without totally losing face.

The thing is though, I consider myself as GC as they come (though not as articulate or well-informed as some on this board) but I struggle to define what a woman is. I mean, it's an adult human female, but what's a female? It's not just about chromosomes, because variations from XX/XY are relatively common (moreso than variations in the number of limbs for example, I would have thought). And it's not just about fertility and reproduction because not everybody is fertile (someone upthread said that 97% of people are/will be/have been fertile, but that seems high based on my own small social circle and the number of couples who have struggled with infertility.)
So how do we define "female"?

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 21:14

😂 @ArabellaScott

I know absolutely nothing about technology tbh but I notice the link is to a google doc, I'm sure someone mentioned on the NHS Fife threads that some people might not want to click on those for some reason?

DuesToTheDirt · 24/07/2025 21:11

niadainud · 24/07/2025 19:52

I agree, but clearly plenty of people do think he has something of value to say.

Apparently a sizeable list of doctors and biologists wrote to the Supreme Court recently objecting to the ruling (the primary objection being the claim that sex in humans is binary). Do their arguments hold any weight?

Sex is binary. DSDs don't change that.

So, some figures. The percentage of people with DSDs is very small, though noone seems to know how small - one paper says "Estimates of incidence range from more than 1 in 100 to less than 1 in 5,000 births". A huge variation in figures. One organisation (dsdfamilies,org) claims "Every year in the UK, approximately 150 children are diagnosed with differences of sex
development (DSD) – and that means there are approximately 2,300 children living with DSD conditions in the UK." Tiny numbers.

Then we have the percentage of trans people. Again, estimates vary between perhaps 0.5 and 2% and many rely on poor data.

It is the trans community pushing the argument that sex is not binary, because it would benefit them. It isn't people with DSDs who push this argument. So, do trans people have some kind of gender dysphoria because they have DSDs? No, they don't. One paper claims that "Gender dysphoria generally affects between 8.5-20% of individuals with DSDs, depending on the type of DSD". I haven't found any figures for the percentage of DSDs among people who say they are trans. However, given that the incidence of trans people is rising rapidly, while I expect DSDs remain fairly constant (though rates of diagnosis and treatment may vary) I cannot imagine there is much of a link. If there was, I'm sure they would be lining up to prove it.

I'm not linking all the papers, you can hunt them out if you want from the phrases I've quoted.

Basically, sex is binary and in many situations it matters. People with DSDs are still male or female. Watch an interview with Caster Semanya and tell me if you think he is female. Watch Imane Khelif boxing and tell me if you think he is female. Watch their behaviour and tell me if they think they're female. (Hint, they really don't.) Trans people are still male or female. How many females are convicted of sexual assault, rape, violence, indecent exposure? And how many trans-identifying men? Whatever is going on in their heads, it is not reflected in their behaviour.

Sorry, that was longer than expected!

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:09

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:08

Sorry! Perhaps your computer is gender critical?

It runs on binary coding, so highly likely.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:08

OldCrone · 24/07/2025 21:00

I just clicked on this link and my computer crashed.

Sorry! Perhaps your computer is gender critical?

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ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:08

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 20:49

Posters here can be blunt and straight talking. I quite like that personally.

But contrary to TRA opinion, the regulars here are actually really lovely people and welcome open good faith discussion.

We are not.

Some of us are absolute horrors. NAMING NO NAMES.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:07

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 20:49

Posters here can be blunt and straight talking. I quite like that personally.

But contrary to TRA opinion, the regulars here are actually really lovely people and welcome open good faith discussion.

I agree.

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 21:06

Muffinmam · 24/07/2025 20:47

I think nothing of him. I don’t think about these people. I ignore them - which is what we all should do.

Fair enough!

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OldCrone · 24/07/2025 21:00

I just clicked on this link and my computer crashed.

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 20:49

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:37

No, I know - it was just getting a bit repetitive and not giving the discussion any substance.

Totally agree about accurate language. I should have used "he" in the first place, but I was introduced to KM through quite a militant pro-trans group I used to belong to (for complicated reasons) so am in the habit of calling KM "her" so as not to be lynched.

Thanks for the link.

Posters here can be blunt and straight talking. I quite like that personally.

But contrary to TRA opinion, the regulars here are actually really lovely people and welcome open good faith discussion.

Muffinmam · 24/07/2025 20:47

niadainud · 24/07/2025 19:50

So rather than just correcting pronouns, what do you think of him?

I think nothing of him. I don’t think about these people. I ignore them - which is what we all should do.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 24/07/2025 20:38

The number of times you see people being interviewed and asked, for example, to define a woman. They way they squirm and stutter is just embarrassing, but I'm sure it's disingenuous 90% of the time and they just know that they can't say what a woman is without totally losing face.

And anyone who says they are going to transition to being a woman, and then alters their body to appear female, knows full well that they think women are female. Unless this is just a huge massive coincidence??

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:37

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 20:33

I don't think anyone was having a go at you, it's just most of the regulars on this board have been talking about this issue for over a decade, realised early on that the pronouns are the thin end of the wedge and believe in correct sexing for accuracy.

After all if you aren't allowed to use accurate language you can't articulate what the issues are.

This was shared again in a different thread, you might find it an interesting read.

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

No, I know - it was just getting a bit repetitive and not giving the discussion any substance.

Totally agree about accurate language. I should have used "he" in the first place, but I was introduced to KM through quite a militant pro-trans group I used to belong to (for complicated reasons) so am in the habit of calling KM "her" so as not to be lynched.

Thanks for the link.

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NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 24/07/2025 20:37

The thing is, even if sex was a spectrum and people were walking around being 65% male, and 35% female - so what?

Trans people are people who have a sex, they have a gender identity, and they believe that these somehow do not 'match'. So how could you have a trans person if they didn't have a sex to match or not-match their gender identity?

What are the list of gender identities that match a 65%M/35%F person? They can't even write out a list of those that match male or female.

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:34

soupycustard · 24/07/2025 20:23

KM is completely ignorant of biology but like many males, utterly convinced of his own rightness in all things.
As to that letter, there was at least one really good thread on it straight after it was published. I'm afraid I cant find it now. But without going over each point, it totally lacks intellectual rigour and mixes a number of concepts together in a way which is consistent with most TRA arguments. If anyone else can find that thread, it's useful as a few posters explained the issues very well and clearly.

Thanks. MN is an excellent resource for this sort of thing!

It amazes me how unintelligent a lot of these so-called experts are when it comes to putting together a coherent and logical argument.

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BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 24/07/2025 20:33

I don't think anyone was having a go at you, it's just most of the regulars on this board have been talking about this issue for over a decade, realised early on that the pronouns are the thin end of the wedge and believe in correct sexing for accuracy.

After all if you aren't allowed to use accurate language you can't articulate what the issues are.

This was shared again in a different thread, you might find it an interesting read.

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:32

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 20:07

Also, faith in the knowledge and professionalism of the medical profession has taken a bit of a battering in the light of the various doctors who have given evidence at the NHS Fife ET.

A consultant, working in a hospital, claimed that she could not correctly sex new born babies as she is 'not an expert'.

I wouldn't trust her to pull a splinter out my finger, let alone anything more onerous.

Jeez.

The number of times you see people being interviewed and asked, for example, to define a woman. They way they squirm and stutter is just embarrassing, but I'm sure it's disingenuous 90% of the time and they just know that they can't say what a woman is without totally losing face.

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:30

Brainworm · 24/07/2025 20:20

when people say sex is binary and immutable, they are referring to the human species comprising of people who are one of 2 sexes. Each sex plays a distinctly different role in sexual reproduction.

97% of the population are fertile (or were or will become fertile). Of the remaining 3%, infertility issues are male or female infertility issues.

There are plenty of new discoveries to be made about within and between sex similarities and differences. None of them will alter the fact that humans reproduce through sexual reproduction and there are males and females.

All of the claims about how varied different elements of the sexed body can be simply highlight the range and variation that can occur within each category.

Do people who claim they don’t know, or can’t really know their sex really not know who needs to do what with a condom should they want to avoid an STI?!

All of the claims about how varied different elements of the sexed body can be simply highlight the range and variation that can occur within each category.

Exactly. Men are generally taller than women, on average, but a 6'2" woman is still a woman and isn't any more male than one who is 5'2". Similarly a woman whose bust size is 32A is not less of a woman than one who is 38DD. A man with low testosterone is still a man. Etc.

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:26

Thank you for everyone's responses. I'm glad the discussion got off the ground, as I was about to resign myself to an endless stream of people saying, "It's he/him/his!" (which of course I don't dispute - it's so easy to get caught up in the habit of "being nice").

It took me a while to get my head around the argument that sex demonstrably couldn't be binary if anyone fell outside the two categories, for whatever reason. I think perhaps the explanation is that as humans are organic, things (i.e. mutations) will happen (i.e. DSDs) that are not the intention of the organism. But of course DSDs are not a third sex, they are a medical/biological anomaly (or series of anomalies) which don't fit the binary - but nor do they disprove it.

As I said, I'm not a biologist, so if I've made any grave errors in my reasoning there please feel free to set me straight.

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soupycustard · 24/07/2025 20:23

KM is completely ignorant of biology but like many males, utterly convinced of his own rightness in all things.
As to that letter, there was at least one really good thread on it straight after it was published. I'm afraid I cant find it now. But without going over each point, it totally lacks intellectual rigour and mixes a number of concepts together in a way which is consistent with most TRA arguments. If anyone else can find that thread, it's useful as a few posters explained the issues very well and clearly.

Brainworm · 24/07/2025 20:20

when people say sex is binary and immutable, they are referring to the human species comprising of people who are one of 2 sexes. Each sex plays a distinctly different role in sexual reproduction.

97% of the population are fertile (or were or will become fertile). Of the remaining 3%, infertility issues are male or female infertility issues.

There are plenty of new discoveries to be made about within and between sex similarities and differences. None of them will alter the fact that humans reproduce through sexual reproduction and there are males and females.

All of the claims about how varied different elements of the sexed body can be simply highlight the range and variation that can occur within each category.

Do people who claim they don’t know, or can’t really know their sex really not know who needs to do what with a condom should they want to avoid an STI?!

niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:19

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 24/07/2025 20:14

Forgive me for the semi automated point by point response to this letter but I am very tired:

This covers all of their points and how they are very very clearly wrong

They are trying to cloud the discussions with words they do not understand so everyone gets confused. This is what the Russians do in propaganda.

Sex is immutable and binary.

1. Claim: “Biological sex is not binary but bimodal”

Rebuttal:
This is a rhetorical sleight of hand. Biological sex is indeed binary, because it is rooted in the reproductive function of the organism: male and female, defined by the production of small or large gametes (sperm or ova). While there are rare disorders of sexual development (DSDs), these are precisely that—disorders, not third sexes. They do not invalidate the binary model any more than congenital limb deformities disprove that humans are bipedal. The attempt to redefine “sex” into a spectrum or modal distribution misrepresents the purpose of biological classification, which is functional and reproductive, not cosmetic or psychological.

2. Claim: “Sex is made up of a collection of traits that vary—chromosomes, hormones, etc.”

Rebuttal:
This mischaracterises how sex is determined. While multiple traits correlate with sex, they are not all equally defining. The determining factor of biological sex is chromosomal: XX = female, XY = male. Everything else (hormones, secondary sex characteristics) flows from this root. Medical interventions may modify appearance or hormone levels, but they do not change sex—they change presentation. To claim otherwise collapses the distinction between cause and effect.

3. Claim: “Anatomy is not fixed—surgery and hormones change sex characteristics, so sex is not immutable.”

Rebuttal:
This confuses phenotypic modification with change of sex. No surgery or hormone regime can produce fully functional reproductive anatomy of the opposite sex. A male who undergoes vaginoplasty does not acquire ovaries or the ability to gestate life. As the UK’s Gender Recognition Act recognises, legal sex may be changed, but biological sex remains immutable. The Forstater v CGD Europe judgment confirmed this view is protected under UK equality law.

4. Claim: “Medical transition causes profound biological changes that invalidate binary sex.”

Rebuttal:
Medical changes are real but limited in scope. Hormonal treatment affects blood chemistry and some physical traits, but this is not the same as changing one’s biological sex. Medicine routinely adjusts for patient context—e.g., using female ranges for post-menopausal women—but this does not alter their sex, merely recognises variability within sex. That’s standard clinical care, not a refutation of binary classification.

5. Claim: “Sex is only binary for reproduction, which is largely irrelevant to daily life.”

Rebuttal:
This dismisses the entire legal and social purpose of sex-based protections, especially for safeguarding. Biological sex matters profoundly in areas like single-sex spaces, sport, prisons, intimate care, and data collection. These are not hypothetical concerns—misclassifying biological males as females can have serious safety implications, particularly in women’s toilets, refuges, or hospital wards. Reducing sex to a reproductive detail is a dangerous abstraction.

6. Claim: “Simple models of sex lead to harm and should not guide policy.”

Rebuttal:
What leads to harm is policy made without regard for material reality or safeguarding duties. The Equality Act allows for single-sex exceptions precisely because binary sex distinctions matter in vulnerable contexts. The EHRC and Supreme Court have correctly affirmed that “biological sex” is the relevant category in law. That is not a political statement—it is a necessary legal and biological fact, and ignoring it risks undermining the rights of women and girls.

Final Thought

Science must be descriptive, not prescriptive. A great many of the signatories to this letter are researchers in psychology, gender studies, or public health—not evolutionary biology or reproductive medicine. That matters. The existence of complexity in sex development does not erase the fundamental binary nature of human sex. The law must protect all, including those with rare conditions—but it cannot be rewritten to appease belief systems that deny biological reality.

Perfect - thank you!

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niadainud · 24/07/2025 20:18

SmugglersHaunt · 24/07/2025 20:05

Yes it’s all long hair and slim lady shoulders in the videos but he’s about 45636ft tall with massive big hands and giant plates of meat

Figures.

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