Peggie case: controversial opinion

Burn the witch. Pick your favourite tune to build a pyre by.

We need more guys like this:

I don't agree with this. I think when women on here say "why should it be women's responsibility to solve mens problems" they are talking about several very specific issues that are men's problems. The three main ones on MN are:

1 - men in men's toilets accepting trans identifying/gender non-conforming men.
That is entirely a men's problem. It's not up to women to sort out who men accept in their toilets. Men need to do it. They are the only ones that can do it. It's their toilets.

2 - male violence against women. That is a men's problem. Men need to take responsibility for their own behaviour. Men need to call out other men on their unacceptable behaviour, speak out against MVAWG and pull other men up on sexism and misogyny. Again, men need to do it. It's not up to women to tell them to do it.

3 - absent/non-paying/abusive fathers. Again, a men's problem. Men need to indicate to other men that none of that is acceptable. Men are the only ones who can communicate that to other men and really get through from a man's perspective.

Women can absolutely expect men to be on their side when it comes to women's rights because any decent bloke should be in a civilised society. Women are well used to sorting out their own specific womeny problems, always have done and always will do. With support from men, not expecting men to do it.

No I don't think if the men were in charge of NHS Fife they wouldn't have let a man into the women's changing rooms. Apart from the fact that the okey dokey wokey blokey's are just as bad as the handmaiden's, CEOs and senior leaders, regardless of their sex, have embraced DEI enthusiastically, because they're driven by the allure of external recognition and awards. The more achievements they can claim the more they can bolster their position during contract renegotiations, which means more lucrative contract terms.

Yeah, I agree they withdraw. Anything for a quiet life!

I guess I mean they don't always understand women's attitudes to men, e.g. that we don't really think they're all rapists but we know some of them are (but not which ones), and that we put TW in the same class because they are also big and male. They're more likely to think of TW as dainty and feminine and therefore not a problem for women.

Obvs this is just a generalisation based on my experience.

It's the Crucible played out in a hospital setting.

IMO these women were all wary and fearful when a trans ID man rocked up with his well educated voice and middle class connections. He was unpredictable, entitled with the potential of being be a major threat to their cozy world. It was a waiting game to see if he would go victim hunting and they edged their bets to make sure it wouldn't be them. Fingers crossed he would move on before unleashing chaos.

All the women in this case considered him to be high risk.

The mixed emotions when he fixatated on an older, working class women must have been overwhelming. Relief it wasn't them and anger because why did SHE have to make a fuss and poke the tiger. Uppity biddy. She should have been a team player. Just a few weeks and he would be gone - why make life difficult for everyone.

So they play the game. Placate and cajole the bully and bitch about the bullied - and they were trapped.

I think men risk assess differently and dont see the problem in the same way.

@DustyWindowsills “men often don't understand why gender issues are such a big deal for women”

I’m not sure. I think it’s pretty obvious to them, but then they see a very vocal and often highly emotive group of women arguing the opposite, and that’s too confusing and they kind of withdraw. Men aren’t equipped to be the opposite side on that kind of argument, especially when it’s on a “women’s issue” (and tbh most of the time staying out of it actually would be the right thing to do).

Same shit different century…..

During the Scottish witch trials, women frequently accused other women of witchcraft. While both men and women were accused, women were disproportionately targeted, and a significant portion of accusations came from other women.

While men were also accused and executed, women were more likely to be targeted and to be accused by other women.

Older women, who might have been more assertive or outspoken, were particularly vulnerable to accusations.

Modern day accusers stand to gain social capital and career advancement, by being seen to be the most progressive, the most kind, the most empathetic, to a small cohort of people which they deem as being oppressed. Pick me handmaidens are some of the worst traitors to their own sex class, usually insufferably smug and condescending too.

I often see women here saying "why should it be women's responsibility to solve mens problems" I honestly don't think feminists can expect men to be on their side and interested in women's rights with that attitude.

Either it's everyone for all of us or eachother sex for themselves m it can't be everyone for women but only men for men.

In my experience, women are prone to groupthink for the sake of social acceptance. I see it as a tendency that occurs in certain contexts, e.g. school friendship groups, workplaces, etc., and it's not true of all women. Like many here at MN, I'm a miserable old contrarian trout.

The men in my life are less eager to conform, so are less prone to this. On the other hand, men often don't understand why gender issues are such a big deal for women.

That’s a very interesting concept.

Suicidal Empathy: The Danger of Compassion Without Limits —on ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385740873_Suicidal_Empathy_The_Danger_of_Compassion_Without_Limits?

And an upcoming book by Gad Saad.

I dunno, I think it might have been handwaved away with an attitude of "you ladies sort it out among yourselves"

Toilets, changing rooms, period stuff (aaagh).... I imagine lots of blokes think they're all women's problems to sort

Just musing based on previous experience!

I think straight men are more likely to see the danger in this and not fall for this nonsense.

Gay men on the other hand IME tend to draw false parallels with how gay men were treated ~50 years ago and push for transwomen to be treated as women.

The women who agree are pandering to MEN - that is the issue. Yes the "be kind" women are a nightmare but the men at the top literally do not give a shit about women - that is why we are here.

To a point yes I think you could be right.

it’s also Scotland

in education however there are enough men really pushing the ideology through too. Also young men and of course some gay men.

I know a gay father who’s in the nhs (to an adopted child) and he’s very vocal about trans stuff on Sm. He’s not in management though, iirc not even an hcp. I think he’s admin etc

I think too many men just look the other way whilst the women cheer it on.

There may be something in what you say, but as far as I’m aware most of the pushback, in this case support for Sandie Peggie is also from women. All too many men act as though it’s not their responsibility to be interested in women’s rights.

Girls are groomed from childhood to be kind and quiet and good.

When adults are too busy trying to straighten out the behaviour of attention-seeking boys at the expense of silently suffering girls, society teaches girls to place male needs before their own. It takes effort to break out of the matrix, so I give them some grace.

But yes, they are very stupid.

I have developed a disdain for the 'progressive professional woman'

They are very left wing moralisers about a lot of topics that do not impact them directly and use the issues to make themselves appear 'kind' - which of course they can afford to do because as above, these issues have no direct impact on them personally

Trans
Climate Change
Palestine
Ukraine
BLM

Women are notorious people-pleasers. Part of our socialisation is to be kind, don't rock the boat, be part of the tribe. Indulging the fantasies of a trans-identifying man is a bingo card for a lot of women: you get to pander to the wants and demands of a man, and you get to signal your kind and progressive credentials to other women. You also get to bully and hector those women who won't get with the programme (disguised as more being kind) and you get to display your compliance to your bosses in a 'pick-me I'm so very inclusive" way. I've come across loads of women in the workplace who are very similar to some of the ones taking the witness stand in the Fife NHS case. That's not to say there aren't any men toeing the very same line, of course there are, but I think there's something irresistible about gender identity ideology to many middle-class, careerist women.

Men have to do a lot of work as they mature to suppress their worst sides, so the very idea of a man with special qualities who should be able to do those ‘worst side’ things cannot be welcome. But then modern work culture has disabled the rough-and-ready ways in which men would traditionally knock one another into line.

The result is that men don’t really have a way to deal with this. Left to themselves the answer would probably be obvious—the good doctor would be made to ‘man up’—but instead they almost have to stand aside, HR deals with it, and the parade in the Peggie case is how that ends up.

I’d love to know how this would play out in a heavily-male workplace, but I can’t recall having seen any such stories? I suppose the factors in play would be very different there.

Interesting point, OP, and I too have been struck by the fact that all the NHS managers involved in throwing Sandie Peggie under the bus have been women. Of course, most NHS staff ARE women, so that's part of the explanation. If they had been men, who knows?

There are obviously men like Owen Jones, Billy Bragg and Jolyon Maugham who are very vociferous in their support of gender ideology. But there are a larger group, I think, who are fairly indifferent. On the whole, it does seem to be women who have adopted the gender madness most enthusiastically.

I don't know what to make of it.

Hmm, given the Owen Joneses and Jolyon Maughams of this world, I think many men are also gung ho about riding roughshod over women's needs. For different reasons maybe but men do it too.

And no need for the preventative warnings about "vitriol". You post an interesting question and people will want to discuss it. Generally if you post politely people will respond politely even if it's to explain why you're wrong. If a majority disagree it's not vitriol it's the majority disagreeing. On a discussion board you can't really say "people who agree with me only". Do that on your own Facebook or something if you can be arsed to curate it.

It’s called suicidal empathy and more women have it than men.

Women who support gender identity ideology to the detriment of their own sex are sometimes called 'Handmaidens', and those are the women that I think you are referring to. They can be very effective at targeting 'heretics', as the Peggie ET is demonstrating.

Unfortunately, men can fall for gender identity ideology just as much as women can. I think that whether they call themselves 'progressive left' is more of an indicator of being in support of this than sex is.

Maybe, men such as Tim Roca, MP, are 'Male Handmaidens'?

Some men have fallen for it. Some know it's nuts and could fix things and won't because they don't want to expose themselves to the vitriol that they know gets slung at anyone with the guts to stand up (Doc Stock, Maya Forstatter etc).

Some women have fallen for it, some of it to 'Beee Kiiind' - most of which, IMHO, is due to female socialisation. I dropped DD off at uni a while ago, and all these keen young things from the year above were rushing around helping the newbies. The pronoun badges were exclusively worn by the young women, mostly by the ones who were overtly feminine.

The blokes didn't bother.

Says a lot,