Eliot Page; a positive example of masculinity?

No way! Either it's a huge coincidence or I remembered that subliminally.

She'd have had to be credited as Ellen for the first two series as that's who she was till then. She played key character Vanya, who only became Victor when Ellen became Elliot at the start of season 3.

I haven't read the comic books on which the series is based, but I gather that the original character was and remained female.

My DD in her last year of school was impressed by a police officer (male) who came in to talk to them all, especially boys, about consent and legality etc. She felt it was particularly impactful to the boys because he was quite a "blokey" bloke telling them in no uncertain terms about respect and consent and basically modelling healthy attitudes.

I feel very sorry for Page. I'm sure she didn't want people to draw this conclusion, but IMHO it's impossible to read her autobiography and not think that her trans identity is a maladaptive trauma response.

But she was never going to convince in a male persona. Not just because she's physically tiny, but she's always been very feminine - not girly girl, but her bearing and mannerisms can't be mistaken for anything but female.

The acting profession is notoriously unkind to women pushing 40. I don't know whether political dogma will be enough to sustain a career for a woman pushing 40 who claims to be a man. Which is a shame, because she's got real talent.

But the idea of pushing Page to boys as an example of positive masculinity is just baffling.

I saw a bit of that - not all of it. Was she credited as Elliot throughout, or did it change?

I only saw Page in The Umbrella Academy and it wasn't that sort of role. The odd thing is that the drama was made to fit around the changed identity of the actor: her female character - sister to her other siblings - went into a barber and came out as a male character to be greeted as a brother by her siblings. Who were all delighted (even the undelightable ones) but recriminating with themselves at some length that they hadn't realised before. All completely outside any plot thread.

It was all really odd. An inversion of the expectation that actors fit around their characters.

How about just ordinary men, ie, men who happen to be biologically male and aren't excessively 'manly'? Who aren't particularly anything other than the fact that they've achieved something that is instructive for other men?

"Gender Critical"

Keith Brymer Jones. Big burly chap, physically could be quite intimidating and does a physical and practical job, calls everyone 'lovey' regardless of sex/age, utterly relaxed about crying when somebody has made a nice plate, shows deep respect and love for his partner.

Loving the suggestions for positive (actual) male role models!

Harry Kane?

That is a great example. The Hairy Bikers spring to mind as well.

Besides anything else how high profile is Page among primary school aged boys? Gareth Southgate I’d get. Harry Styles I get. Jeez, whisper it, but I’d even understand David Tennant*, but isn’t Elliot Page more likely to elicit a “who”.

*although honestly, men they know would be better than celebrities.

Kevin Sinfield should be promoted as a postive role model for masculinity. He is a very masculine man but was not afraid to show his love for Rob Burrow, especially that moment towards the end of one of his marathons when he kissed Burrow. What a display of love that was.

I have a theory that part of the reason Page looks miserable and ill is that one of the reasons she wanted to opt out of being a woman was the constant requirement to be made up to the nines and smile for cameras. Another example of the kind of giving in to stereotypes that says I'm an exception rather than nah, let's fight that stupid rule. I think she might be happier than she looks, although that is currently a low bar.

Conversion therapy? As in giving a homosexual individual cross-sex hormones and surgery?

There's a reason why Iran carries out the second highest amount of sex-change surgeries in the world, it may have something to do with homosexuality being illegal.

But Iran is applauded by TRAs are one of the best places in the world.

It's bonkers, and basically sends the exact opposite message to what they say they're trying to do. Nobody's fooled by "Elliott" - so what they're really saying is "Yes, it IS possible to be a non-stereotypical (or worse, non-"toxic") man - by being born a woman! Yay!". Which, of course, is completely impossible for any actual boy, and therefore hardly likely to make them aspire to try, or to reassure them that they aren't locked into "toxic masculinity".

And I also agree with the previous comments - I wouldn't say Page has displayed ANY particular 'qualities' since deciding she was a man, beyond being extremely quiet and always looking deeply unhappy, which also aren't much to aspire to. It really does read like "boys, be more like a woman [is assumed to be], but look, you can still CALL yourself a man!".

If they wanted to demonstrate that men can be caring and have other non-stereotypical positive qualities, what about actual MEN who obviously DO do this, like Marcus Rashford, Joe Wicks, and loads more?

As if Page is ever going to be cast as a male lead opposite a woman in a romcom, or as a male hero in a big budget action thriller. Hollywood knows exactly which sex she is.

That was the title of her autobiography

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81TDDVVcTPL.SY425.jpg

Yes, or a pageboy... I'll get my coat

I think lots of boys and men really do not like the way other men behave and feel very tainted by that behaviour. Putting forward a trans man as a role model will just discourage those boys and men, won't it? Ie, even the good men are biologically female.

Even if he was a biological male, I’m not really clear what Eliot Page has ever done to be a role model of masculinity. Moderately successful actor? There are lots of those around.

I couldn’t see anything in the article that says that the school had actually told the kids that Page is a man tho. I agree that a transwoman would have been a much less confusing example to use in a list of men displaying a range of types of masculinities, to make the point that men live their lives as men in lots of different ways.

I’m making a distinction here that a lot of adults miss though, that ‘gender’ (sex stereotypes which we describe as masculinity or femininity), isn’t connected with what sex you are. If the school missed out or glossed over that absolutely fundamental distinction, then the whole lesson would have just been a confusing and and gaslighting mess.

Its not very interesting to celebrate male celebs who wear colours or sparkle because kids should already have been taught from a young age that soft or bright colours/lcertain games/clothes etc are for anyone female or male who likes them. OK bHarry Styles likes wearing sequins as part of a costume on stage. Pretty sure he doesn’t wear those doing whatever he does every day.

To better explain the bullshit of gender to kids the school they could have used some much more everyday examples, maybe talking about men doing what used to be thought of as ‘women’s’ jobs and women doing what used to be thought of as ‘men’s jobs’ for example. Or by making a comparison across cultures or history to see the variations in how ‘masculinity’ or ‘femininity’ have been defined by culture and by how much those definitions vary in different societies across the world, or different historical periods.

E Page is an interesting example of transing away the gay

Tbf though we still don't really understand homosexuality any better than transexuality if I'm not mistaken. It wasn't long ago it was also considered a mental illness and gay people were subject to conversion therapy.

A transwoman would be a far more positive example of masculinity. It would show boys that they can grow up to be anything they wanted to be. Boys can grow up to be transwomen. A boy is never going to grow up to be a transman.

Yep.

There is / was also clearly disordered eating at play too.

this is just not the image of a healthy or happy role model in fact it screams "im desperately unhappy" which isnt really role model material whatever the sex IMO.