I’ve sent my email to Tim. Not holding my breath for a response. I did make myself listen to the recording again so I could quote him correctly. Listening to it again there were new things that annoyed me. He talks about some what’s app group being their safe space and how upset and angry they were when this was breached. They’ve got a different what’s app safe space now so that’s ok. But does he not see the quite obvious parallels with other groups who might want real (not just virtual) safe spaces for more important reasons. He also talked about the importance of rationality and compassion. There was simply none of that
present in his words. Rather the opposite.

I’ve discovered via X that it’s possible to make a complaint to the Labour Party so I might try that tomorrow. Again might not achieve much but worth it to me to express my thoughts.

And I don’t assume any of those groups you mentioned are because of a few but I do wonder why without exception every single trans identified male I’ve met IRL has been sexually creepy, including young males which surprised me and depressed me at the time. I don’t believe every single trans identified male is sexually creepy I’ve engaged in discussion with some online that seem pleasant people but I’ve not met them IRL.

That said I had to wonder what % are that I’ve never met one in person that isn’t? I very much wanted to believe I was just very unlucky years ago as I said I was an uninformed ally then but eventually I couldn’t convince myself anymore. If that offends you so be it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Having noticed that pattern and then read about the acronym I’m unsure whether we can name it here it made more sense. Again if that view offends you I can live with that.

I’ve never knowingly met any trans identified females so have no personal view.

Lots of people adopt an appearance that doesn't correspond to the stereotype of the sex they were born into - me, for instance - and that's fine, but there's a difference between gender-non-conforming people like me, and people who present as the opposite sex, whether or not they actually believe 'TWAW'.

If the quiet ordinary intelligent transwomen do not believe they have really changed sex and are now women, what is their motive for trying to 'pass', ie. wanting people to think they are women, when they know it's not true?

I really don't agree that they all believe they can change sex, I think most of them will be more intelligent than that. As for whether they adopt a feminine/ masculine appearance etc I couldn't care less. But it's time for the quiet ordinary ones now to take the reins and show that they can respect single sex spaces, sports and all the other things where it's important. The SC court ruling has been a jolt for some I'm sure but if the majority can be respectful that's the only way forward now. So that's what I'm hoping for. The loud mouths must be seeing that their way isn't going to wash anymore.

Really? So you haven't read and heard about all the gay paedophiles? A homophobes view is often that all gay people are paedophiles because of those ones. And as for straight men, do we assume they're all domestic abusers and murderers because that is so common? I know perfectly ordinary trans/ gay and straight people. You really can't lump everyone in together because of the actions of some of them.

I think where we differ is that I don't have any opinion about individual trans people as being lovely, awful, ordinary, outrageous, bad apple, good apple, whatever; I don't assess transgenderism - or any ism for that matter - on how nice or abhorrent individual adherents are - I assume trans people are are a mixed bunch, as we all are.

I don't disagree with transgenderism because of any 'heinous acts' any individuals have done, I disagree with it because it is based on the idea that humans can change sex, and because I disagree with men appropriating women's identity.

All transgender people, by definition, profess the belief that humans can change sex, and all transwomen are men who claim to be women, and I object to that - it's nothing personal, its a matter of principle.

Many (many) years ago I thought I’d just been really unlucky that every trans identified males I came across were at best creepy and at worst sexually abusive in their behaviour towards me. I hadn’t read much and trying to be a good liberal ally. But it became increasingly difficult to not wonder why I was so unlucky so I started to educate myself. I came to the conclusion it was a feature not an exception and I’ve yet not met any trans identified males IRL that I would regard as ‘ordinary’ people. Whereas I would regard all of the gay and lesbian people I’ve met as ‘ordinary’ people.

Hmm, so we're having Not my gay Nigel...
How many women here have a lesbian friend as opposed to a gay one hmm?

Straights like to think there is a happy unified LGB...it's nonsense.
Gay men and Lesbians have nothing in common. We despise each other.
Especially now after the sterling work lesbians did for gay men, nursing, caring, advocating for them during AIDs. When we turned to gay men for support around 2015 in the face of Trans they did Zero, they ran the LGBT orgs and supported the men. That's why this gay MP Tim Roca doesn't surprise us in the least. It's the norm and we've known for a long time..
We're also disgusted by what Pride turned into: a perverse debauched display of sexuality and fetishes. Plus the creep of former PIE supporters worming their way into the LGBTQ tent: and they're male...There's no safeguarding. The lesbians I know are now against gay men adopting or fostering children.
and the quiet gay couples, well gay men have no problem with random sex with other men in a committed relationship. Chemsex is the biggest problem in the gay community.
And frankly I don't care.

I'm not sure what on-line fora is? I post on an urbanism and architecture forum besides this one, if that is what you refer to? ( forums)?

I have a couple of older gay male friends, my age......who I first met in my teens, and both have also been taken by surprise at the advent of trans ideology...but because they still associate to some extent in 'queer' circles they are a bit torn.
They understand my persepctive, but also simultaneously wish there was " more tolerance" ( whatever that means in the context of single sex spaces and so on)...

The gay men on the urbanism forum are mostly younger...maybe that is why they are so hostile....? although there is one guy, late 40's, who is sympathetic...even though he tends to come at the whole issue from a very intellectual angle...and I'm not sure he really understands the 'finer sensibilities' that motivate women. My experience even of the gay friends I have is that they still tend to understand things through a predominantly 'masculine' lens when it comes to sex, sexuality etc

I like men, generally, and I find that men that actually like women are far more sensitive.....and that does include lots of straight men.

But you're assuming all trans people believe they can actually change sex which many don't believe and that they are all trying to get into women's spaces which just isn't true. It's an over generalisation because of the bad apples. Most trans people are just wanting to live and ordinary life and not draw attention to themselves or foist themselves on women or men as the case may be. We could bring up plenty of examples of gay people who have committed vile acts in the same way we can point to plenty of straight people who have also done the same heinous acts. It really isn't right to bunch a whole group of people together and say they are wrong just because some of them are. There are lots of people who may be gay or straight who's opinions or actions I find abhorrent but that doesn't mean I think everyone else is the same.

I definitely know the type. I think of them as "the Colins" because, for some reason, a high percentage of those I know seem to be called Colin.

They fall into definite categories - heavily involved in "the scene", often plugged into activist circles, fully signed up to queer identity, often having lives where they rarely interact with women. There are some other traits there.

They have very little in common with normie gay men who I know who are just quietly living in suburbia with their husbands, working normie jobs, having normie hobbies.

That's not my experience of gay men, but maybe we just move in different circles

One circle I most definitely do not move in is online fora, but it wouldn't surprise me that there are sexist, misogynistic pro-trans comments on a male-dominated forum.

It does seem to me that straight men, generally, have more awareness and sensitivity as to why women might require the privacy and dignity of single sex spaces, whreas many gay men just don't! Maybe it is gay men who are really into the whole 'queer scene' thing who can't see what the issue is.

I post on a very male dominated forum ( 95% men..and large percentage of those are gay) and it is the ones for whom being gay is a major part of their identity that have been the most vile and hateful whenever i've brought up the issue of women's rights and protections. They cannot see past trans rights and have actually come out with some pretty sexist, misogynistic comments in defence of them.

I don't accept an equivalence between 'ordinary lesbian and gay people' and 'ordinary trans people'.

Being lesbian or gay does not impose on the rest of society any demand to go along with a biological impossibility, to impinge on women's rights, to misuse language, etc., which being trans does.

The issue with transgenderism is not whether some trans people 'behave badly' or not, the issue is the very basis of trans ideology which depends on denial of scientific reality.

I think we should also acknowledge that there are many ordinary trans people just getting on with their lives just as there are many gay and straight people just getting on with their lives. Of course we pick up on the ones that behave badly whether trans, gay or straight but most people in general do not behave badly. My hope is that the ordinary trans people will speak up and drown out the loud disruptive voices, and agree with single sex spaces, sports etc so that everyone can just get back to living their lives. I know trans people who hate the way they are being represented but they're not used to putting themselves forward and making a noise. That must change. I think one problem perhaps for the older trans people is that they were told that living as a woman or man meant using things like toilets for the opposite gender. Obviously this was never right but I can see that it's an adjustment.
Back to this MP though, does he really think talking about the general public in this way is going to help his cause?!

I think that's why it's so important to look him in the eyes as you ask.

I've been planning a visit to my own useless TRA sexist arsehole of an MP (Labour, natch) as he's similarly dismissive or absent on email.

This might be the perfect excuse.

From what you said about his previous form of not replying, I think c is the most likely outcome too. 😒

I’ve been out for a walk reflecting on this. If I ask Tim Roca for his definition of a “swivel-eyed transphobe”, is he going to a) dodge the question or b) dodge the question and say something about TWAW? or c). Just not reply

i think I’ll probably go with c.

Frankly, I think you’d get change from a ha’penny with that chap.

That's a huge generalisation!

I know the kind of gay man you are referring to, thatsthewayitis, and I can see that the whole trans thing would appeal to them, the drag and the glitter and the misogyny.

But most gay men are just ordinary people getting on with life.
I've known many gay men who are very strong supporters of women, and of feminism, they all have mothers and sisters and aunties and many of them have women friends, so to suggest that they are all remote from women's lives or worse still that 'most of them despise women' is unfair.

As for gay men being 'blind spot to the needs of women and children' ? Straight men on the other hand are so very much in tune to the needs of women and children, aren't they?😏

Not a huge fan of Tony Benn, but leaving that aside... during his decades in parliament he voted consistently for every LGB rights issue. I have reason to believe that privately he wasn't quite so gay-friendly. (A few anecdotal accounts that have come my way, but they're consistent with each other and convincing to me)

If a 100-year-old Benn were alive today and politically active, I am absolutely certain he'd be full on TRA in everything he said publicly, and if he privately thought it was nonsense that wouldn't come out until years later.

I distrust politicians who do a lot of performative virtue, and the ones I warm to are the ones I've seen quietly showing kindness to people who aren't in a position to do anything for them. This does not map neatly onto party or ideology.

I think we can treat this in a matter of fact way. If there is no stigma attached to being gay (as there isn't in my eyes, and the eyes of most of the UK population I would hope) then it's just another thing a candidate might be. Say you have a parliamentary candidate who is male, 40 years old, white, comes from an affluent family, lived in a solidly middle class area and went to the very good local state schools, proceeded to a top university, got a job in a think tank, etc etc, what many of their poorer constituents would want to know is how well equipped is the aspiring MP to understand their constituents' lives and advocate for their interests, given that he seems to have no similar experiences in his background to draw on. In a case like that being gay would be the least relevant thing about the candidate. If constituents were also to say 'You don't have any children so you don't know how tough life is for families' that could apply to any childless candidate, not just one who is childless because he is a gay man.

As a lesbian let me explain;
gay men are not your friends. Most of them despise women.
We lesbians have known this for years but our straight sisters don't.