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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
GermaineBloodyGreer · 20/07/2025 05:17

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

Studies of what, exactly? That critics of non-binary identities are predominately homophobic? If you have such a study, link it and I'd be happy to look it over, but I rather suspect you don't. Based on your previous contributions to this thread, I imagine you would link to research citing generalised 'LGBTQ+' discrimination as a monolith, with no breakdown of how prejudice manifests different across categories, specifically (in this case) non-binary.

But alas: when substance fails, there's always sarcasm and emojis. So well done on that front.

And as for the Judith Butler comparison, I suppose if one uses more than monosyllables and doesn't pre-chew their reasoning, it starts to look like sorcery.

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:20

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 22:01

I disagree.

The issue in your initial post is that you are hitching the non-binary wagon to the legitimate mental distress of gay men and lesbians. It reads as tactical laundering and opportunistic co-opting of a distinct struggle.

Homophobia (targeting people for their immutable, sex-based orientation) is fundamentally different from scepticism or mockery directed at individuals announcing a personal identity based on clothing, personality, or vague discontent with gender stereotypes. The former is rooted in material reality and centuries of persecution, whilst the latter is a contemporary aesthetic ideology, adopted voluntarily and maintained through performance and declaration. These experiences are simply not the same. 'Non-binary' is a self-ascribed label, not an innate or inescapable condition. The so-called unsupportive environments non-binary people may encounter are simply not on par with the entrenched hostility that gay men and women have historically had to navigate.

Failing to support gay and lesbian people has meant punishing them for what they cannot change. It's unquestionably a societal moral failing.
Refusing to endorse non-binary identity claims is not in the same category, and pretending otherwise trivialises the real thing. It's akin to a Scientologist claiming to be oppressed because nobody around them believes nor takes the threat of Xenu seriously.

It's disingenuous (and frankly lazy) to generalise those who are critical of non-binary identities as de facto homophobes. You're welcome to argue the perceived hardships of non-binary people, but do so under their own placard, not by grafting their cause onto a history that is not theirs.

Well you can disagree all you like, but maybe look up the studies covering this are.

But kudos, I can see the gender critical movement now have a Judith Butler if their very own. 😁

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 01:14

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2025 00:37

She implied no such thing.

On the contrary, that poster's response indicated an acceptance of my own point about general prejudicial attitudes / behaviours but a desire to distinguish those expressed by LBG / non LGB populations.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2025 00:37

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 00:29

Are you implying that gender critical LGB people ( or straight people) would automatically be prejudiced in their attitude or behaviour towards trans people?

Why would you imply that?

She implied no such thing.

suggestionsplease1 · 20/07/2025 00:29

BabyCatFace · 19/07/2025 17:20

How do you account for gender critical lesbians, gay and bisexual people?

Are you implying that gender critical LGB people ( or straight people) would automatically be prejudiced in their attitude or behaviour towards trans people?

Why would you imply that?

Enough4me · 19/07/2025 23:09

Well it's unusual to disbelieve the very being that you happen to be. It has to take an incredible mental delusion leap.

TomPinch · 19/07/2025 23:05

If you can't conform to the stereotypes of masculinity and femininity that society imposes on you, you're going to feel bad. It's very oppressive, not being able to fit in.

The obvious right answer is remove the stereotypes, and make it clear those people they are just fine as they are.

The obviously wrong answer is to tell them that they're something other than their biological sex. Yet that's the path that's been chosen. So much time has been wasted and harm done by this bad choice.

Gardeninging · 19/07/2025 22:54

OneChicHazelHedgehog · 19/07/2025 20:58

0.6

🤣 same as the human population.

It's a bit like "Newsflash!"
Goths and extreme body modification addicts have underlying mental health issues!
Colour me surprised.

FingleGlen · 19/07/2025 22:29

I think there was a phenomena discussed in another thread about conflation of correlation and causation, leading to the coined headline, "wet streets cause rain" .

I was just reminded of that....

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 22:01

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

I disagree.

The issue in your initial post is that you are hitching the non-binary wagon to the legitimate mental distress of gay men and lesbians. It reads as tactical laundering and opportunistic co-opting of a distinct struggle.

Homophobia (targeting people for their immutable, sex-based orientation) is fundamentally different from scepticism or mockery directed at individuals announcing a personal identity based on clothing, personality, or vague discontent with gender stereotypes. The former is rooted in material reality and centuries of persecution, whilst the latter is a contemporary aesthetic ideology, adopted voluntarily and maintained through performance and declaration. These experiences are simply not the same. 'Non-binary' is a self-ascribed label, not an innate or inescapable condition. The so-called unsupportive environments non-binary people may encounter are simply not on par with the entrenched hostility that gay men and women have historically had to navigate.

Failing to support gay and lesbian people has meant punishing them for what they cannot change. It's unquestionably a societal moral failing.
Refusing to endorse non-binary identity claims is not in the same category, and pretending otherwise trivialises the real thing. It's akin to a Scientologist claiming to be oppressed because nobody around them believes nor takes the threat of Xenu seriously.

It's disingenuous (and frankly lazy) to generalise those who are critical of non-binary identities as de facto homophobes. You're welcome to argue the perceived hardships of non-binary people, but do so under their own placard, not by grafting their cause onto a history that is not theirs.

NameChangedOfc · 19/07/2025 21:32

Quick, Sherlock, we have a mystery here...

😑

ErrolTheDragon · 19/07/2025 21:13

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:06

It could just be because they're Scottish mind. 😂

(Only joking Wales loves you Scotland 😍)

I'd put the icon of my flag up but MN does have the Welsh flag 😡, it's got all the other flags though, which seems a bit racists or bigoted or some other victim thing.

It’s got the dragon! Dragon

OneChicHazelHedgehog · 19/07/2025 20:58

MatronPomfrey · 19/07/2025 20:03

Wonder what the split between the male non/binaries and female non-binaries is?

0.6

MatronPomfrey · 19/07/2025 20:03

Wonder what the split between the male non/binaries and female non-binaries is?

Lemonz · 19/07/2025 19:16

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:06

It could just be because they're Scottish mind. 😂

(Only joking Wales loves you Scotland 😍)

I'd put the icon of my flag up but MN does have the Welsh flag 😡, it's got all the other flags though, which seems a bit racists or bigoted or some other victim thing.

Sorry to veer wildly off topic, but although the Welsh flag doesn't appear in the MN list (and nor does England or Scotland), you can still use the keyboard emojis. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

I guess Northern Ireland isn't specifically represented because the official flag is the Union Jack.

JohnnyRememberMe · 19/07/2025 18:33

Who'd have thought that attempting to force the world to believe nonsense is so tough?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:22

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

The people who are currently showing the most prejudice towards LGB are in fact the 'trans' population and their allies.

roseyposey · 19/07/2025 18:22

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 16:40

What does non-binary identities have to do with prejudice and stigma that gays and lesbians face? One is an opt-in subculture and ideological statement, the other is innate sexual orientation. You cannot meaningfully group the two together in regards to unsupportive environment without trivialising the discrimination that actual sexual minorities face.

Well said

Supporterofwomensrights · 19/07/2025 18:20

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:06

It could just be because they're Scottish mind. 😂

(Only joking Wales loves you Scotland 😍)

I'd put the icon of my flag up but MN does have the Welsh flag 😡, it's got all the other flags though, which seems a bit racists or bigoted or some other victim thing.

Thoughts and prayers. 🙏

Annoyedone · 19/07/2025 18:12

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

Ummmm err…… no

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 19/07/2025 18:06

It could just be because they're Scottish mind. 😂

(Only joking Wales loves you Scotland 😍)

I'd put the icon of my flag up but MN does have the Welsh flag 😡, it's got all the other flags though, which seems a bit racists or bigoted or some other victim thing.

BabyCatFace · 19/07/2025 17:20

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

How do you account for gender critical lesbians, gay and bisexual people?

suggestionsplease1 · 19/07/2025 17:11

GermaineBloodyGreer · 19/07/2025 16:40

What does non-binary identities have to do with prejudice and stigma that gays and lesbians face? One is an opt-in subculture and ideological statement, the other is innate sexual orientation. You cannot meaningfully group the two together in regards to unsupportive environment without trivialising the discrimination that actual sexual minorities face.

Well, quite simply, the people who show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards LGB populations are also very likely to be those that show prejudicial attitudes and behaviours towards trans populations, because those prejudices tend to stem from similar underlying beliefs about gender roles and expectations, and a discomfort with those who deviate from those norms.

They're really not bothering to stop and enquire if a person happens to be T or LGB

ErrolTheDragon · 19/07/2025 16:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/07/2025 15:02

Half of popes are Catholic reports self reported survey.

Whereas if you rely on facts it’s a lower percentage.Grin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_(title)

(sorry that’s one of my favourite pieces of pedantry)

OneChicHazelHedgehog · 19/07/2025 16:41

I’m surprised it’s not higher.

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