More than half of non-binary Scots say they have poor mental health

Well, the first four studies are behind paywalls.

I doubt Suggestions, that you have access to them, because if you did, you would at least post large segments out of them to support your arguments on this thread.

However, having seen you do this on a now regular basis, do you now merely ask AI to find these studies and then plonk them on a thread?

It is good etiquette that if you are posting studies, that you describe the relevant bits in each. Otherwise, people will just assume that you have googled and pasted without actually understanding in any depth what you have posted.

Please go through and discuss your contributions. Plonking them down is not only lazy but it doesn't do anything to support your own arguments in any way.

For instance your first link dates from 2012 and it paywalled. So, have you even read it? Please point out the relevant bits to the current cohort of people with transgender identities and this issues that they face that you found convincing in this study.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22329343/

Some studies on the connection between transphobia and homophobia:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22329343/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S019188691930323X

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0044118X251320400

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0110-6

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2024.2344015

Are we seeing another thread where the plight of historic people in homophobic and sexist cultures are being politically leveraged to support a modern day group of people with a philosophical belief that doesn't reflect material reality?

Your original analysis is fundamentally flawed as it pretends that non binary identifies are a recent trend, rather than an enduring expression throughout history and cultures.

Any point you make subsequent to that is not valid as it it predicated on a flawed premise.

Understatement of the century lol

No, I asked the question because you conflate 'prejudice' against trans/non binary people with being homophobic which is a false claim. I asked you about gender critical LGB people because they exist, and they disprove your claim.

No shit!!!

Your critical thinking skills aren't very good are they?

I could be performatively offended but frankly I don't care because I'm not a twat

I agree. Being offended is a choice.

I'm struggling to visualise what discrimination non-binary people actually face - sex and gender are different things. They are all still male or female, like all humans. So they can't claim discrimination by medical services listing their sex, or sports and changing facilities etc being single sex. Their experience there is no different to mine - indeed if we changed medical categories to include non-binary as a sex they would be majorly disadvantaged - how would a medic know if a pregnancy test was needed for a non-binary adult with abdo pain? How would we interpret blood in the urine?
All I can think of is title - which most people don't use regularly. I'm in a relationship with a child but unmarried- people get my title and surname wrong regularly - I could be performatively offended but frankly I don't care because I'm not a twat.

My teen was part of a similar group. It was terrible on my teen's own mental health, to the point that they preferred to be alone at school at lunch time than to have to be part of that group's constant struggles. This was the group where 5 out of 7 of them had declared transgender identities. I listened to some of these discussions as I was driving them places and it was very sad to hear the topics.

Including lesbians being told by their friends that they had to include male people who said they were lesbians in their dating pool otherwise they were transphobic bigots. This was at the time that Nancy Kelly was describing lesbians who excluded these male people as being transphobic and other negative things.

Of course this is going to have severe impacts on people's mental health. The issue is what needs to be done to address these mental health issues.

true.

"I mean this is hardly surprising, and replicates the same international findings, that mental health in LGBTQ populations is poor for those in unsupportive environments with high levels of prejudice and stigma, but improves with higher levels of social support.
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-023-05202-z

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-024-00201-9

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-023-16034-7

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/382043743_Community_belonging_and_acceptance_is_this_the_antidote_to_shame_and_societal_discrimination_An_exploration_of_LGBTQ_individuals'_attendance_at_pride_and_their_mental_health

https://time.com/6972292/anti-lgbtq-policies-have-an-alarming-effect-on-youth-mental-health/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08862605221108087

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468266723003122 "

Would you like to talk us through each of these studies rather than doing your usual just plonking what you have googled onto a post?

For instance, why do you feel the experience of homosexual and bisexual people in China, a country which has been well publicised for its poor human rights record, is comparative to non-binary people in Scotland who have access to a great deal of support? Or was it just that it discussed 'minority stress' and you felt you could leverage that to make it relevant?

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-023-05202-z

Can you please provide an accessible link for this paper, or are we just to make assumptions from the first one and a bit paragraphs?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-024-00201-9

And of course a group who has been affirmed, meaning that they have received positive attention, including special days just for them to be celebrated are going to feel affirmed and happy as per this link. I doubt that any one would have felt that this hypothesis would be disproved. However, that the paper discusses the 'affirmation of identities' for 'cisgender' people leaves this paper rather lacking in clarity.

What is a cohesive cisgender identity that all these people share to be grouped as such? Because reading this study, it hasn't provided definitions and then it briefly posits that some 'cisgender' males feel less affirmed because of their 'feminine' presentation and that might be the reason that cisgender males have poor mental health compared to that group who has been affirmed.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-023-16034-7

And I don't think that this paper below can be considered to be anything but a collected of positive attitudes towards Pride. It was a self selecting group at 7 Pride events which means collecting the feedback at a time when there is also maximum positive feelings about the event. There was no intention of finding out what Pride means to LGBT+ people who did not attend those Pride events. Can you explain why this paper is to be considered anything other than the collecting of positive experiences?

Do you think this should be considered a paper that describes the general population of LGBT+ people? Why?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/382043743_Community_belonging_and_acceptance_is_this_the_antidote_to_shame_and_societal_discrimination_An_exploration_of_LGBTQ_individuals'_attendance_at_pride_and_their_mental_health

Why does this Trevor Project survey keep being presented as evidence to support affirmation to prevent suicide? Surely by now it has been regarded as misleading ?

https://time.com/6972292/anti-lgbtq-policies-have-an-alarming-effect-on-youth-mental-health/

Why have you attempted to leverage the experience of people with same or both sex orientations that are not heterosexual to support those of non-binary people? There is a segment of people who are non-binary who will fit into this group but why are you leveraging the axis of sexual orientation to explain generalised experience of people with transgender identities?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08862605221108087

This final review is just another that attempts to measure the issues faced by two different groups. How can this study develop an accurate understanding when it is looking at issues such as 'laws and policies' of the two groups. What laws and policies in the USA are discriminating against people who are same sex or both sex attracted?

It starts off with this:

'In terms of measurement types, 58 (59%) of 98 studies measured LGBTQ+ structural stigma via either a single law or policy (eg, constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage, lack of a law requiring access to transgender-related medical care) '

Can you please point out why these two issues above should be considered together for the purpose of evaluation? One, banning same sex marriage, is an established illegitimate discrimination, and the other is a demand that is unsupported by evidence.

And by the way, Pachenkis is one of the authors of this paper was forced to correct his conclusion in a paper that attempted to state that transgender affirming health care treatments improved patient's mental health. Surely, you checked the authors of the papers you have linked to support your post?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468266723003122

I don't believe anyone denies that people with transgender identities have poor mental health. However, I would disagree that simply affirming someone's philosophical belief as if it is materially real is going to lead to long term improvement of mental health. And I would also disagree that short term improvement of mental health should be considered the ideal, to the detriment of long term mental health considerations.

Does it not concern you that your links don't discuss the long term mental health improvement of the group of people the OP refers to? And does it not concern you that LGB people are being politically leveraged by people with transgender identities who may not be LGB at all?

Absolutely, it is the most boring subculture in history.

Between this generation obsessed with their own identities (which are about as far from individual and challenging of gender norms as it is possible to get), ideological capture of the arts (cancelling of gender critical artists, new works being sanitised by sensitivity readers etc) and the rise of AI, we are currently heading for very bad times for human innovation and creativity.

DD has a group of friends that ‘identified as…’

Its all they talked about out

Not music, films, hobbies, hair, clothes, tv shows - literally nothing else.

Maybe they need to look into this obsession with their own identity?

If anything, this all about me culture is killing society.

Lol, gender critical feminism is at its heart an anti Butlerian flapdoodle movement.

Perfect example of correlation, not causation.

Summed it up perfectly!!!!

Or worse, finds Judith Butler concise and informative?

It was just a lazy snide remark. But if Suggestions found the post impenetrable, in concept and in communication, that might explain a great many things.

When did Judith Butler write anything so clear, concise and understandable, when you talking sense you don’t need to hide behind impenetrable prose or jargon laden gobbledegook. The harder you have to work to find meaning the more there is no meaning to find.

Indeed Germaine.

As we often point out, homosexual and gay people were also campaigning for equal access to opportunities that people that were heterosexual took for granted. Otherwise, there was no other demand of society. Sexual orientation is, of course, materially real based on a response to attraction.

When someone who has the trangender identity of non-binary is interacting with society there is the demand to act as if society and individuals share this group’s philosophical belief. Not just support the group to have the belief, but society has been demanded to change language and to act as if the belief is based on material reality when it will never be.

The needs of the two groups are not comparable, yet there will be the constant denial of posts that point this out. Because the forces teaming is needed by those under the group with transgender identities.

I love that! Will definitely be using it. Thanks

Have a coffee and try reading the post again. It might help. 😉