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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we be "Sex realist" now? Not "Gender critical"?

143 replies

DiamondThrone · 13/07/2025 17:16

I feel like we've been boxed into a corner. Being defined by "gender", when what we are actuall defined by is "sex", not womany feels.

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POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 18/07/2025 01:04

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:30

That all seems very sensible to me. I am sure @POWNewcastleEastWallsend will be along to shout at you presently.

Meanwhile, I and today's most prominent KC on the subject are happy with the term "sex realist". It is now in court transcript.

"I am sure @POWNewcastleEastWallsend will be along to shout at you presently."

Come off it, you are completely misrepresenting me now.

I have not raised a single objection to the term "sex realist".

I was, however, at the end of my tether with your rude, dismissive responses to women on a completely different matter, ie. your insistence that it is only since the SC judgement that anyone has been claiming that people can actually change sex, referring to themselves as "biologically female" when they are actually male.

As so many PP have pointed out, just because you have only just come across this by lurking on Reddit does not mean that this is a new thing. I have provided evidence in a previous post.

If you are prepared to lie and insult people in order to bolster your case it is obvious that even you know that it is weak.

Please do not misrepresent me again.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/07/2025 23:55

Surely "sane" covers it.

WallaceinAnderland · 17/07/2025 23:20

Naomi uses both. Both are acceptable.

The thing that people were telling you was not new, was the information you provided that TRA's claim to have actually changed sex.

FYI sex realist has been kicking around for a while too but GC is more well known and, as explained by a pp, is the belief that is protected in law. This is why Naomi uses both.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 18:15

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 18:13

You’re not wrong to use the term ‘sex realist’. You’re wrong to say we can use it as a replacement for ‘gender critical’.

Best tell that to Naomi Cunningham then, before tomorrow's hearing starts.

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ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 18:13

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 16:26

Loads of people on this thread disagreed with me. Shouted at me. Told me I was rehashing old argument and it was all new to me. (Which it wasn't.)

You told me in a sorts of ways how I was wrong to suggest using that term.

Well. Now we have the prosecuting barrister in the most high profile gender critical case in the UK using the term "sex realist". I rest my case, m'lud.

She didn't need to say it. Nobody else had. She has introduced it to proceedings on purpose.

Edited

You’re not wrong to use the term ‘sex realist’. You’re wrong to say we can use it as a replacement for ‘gender critical’.

OldCrone · 17/07/2025 17:38

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 16:02

Yes. Believe it or not, I also understand what the latter means.

But out there in the real world, I think that "sex realist" would cut through more. And is more accurate, now that they are claiming to literally change sex again.

Anyway, a good day for us sex realists 😀

Gender critical feminists are a subset of sex realists. If you are gender critical, you first have to believe in the reality of sex.

Saying you are a sex realist rather than gender critical implies to me that you don't hold gender critical beliefs (these are defined in@POWNewcastleEastWallsend's post) . Is that the case, or are you also gender critical? In case that's still not clear, someone like Trump is a sex realist, but not gender critical.

You said earlier that you didn't fit into the Venn diagram posted by a PP. I'm not sure how that's possible so I asked you for your position on the 3 statements and their opposites which were included in the diagram, but you declined to answer. Would you be prepared to answer them now?

Do you think sex is nonphysical/changeable or that sex is physical/non-changeable? (I think I know your answer to this as you call yourself 'sex realist'.)

Do you accept or reject gender nonconformity?

Do you think gender is oppressive/constructed or that gender is edifying/innate?

Perhaps you are a sex realist but not gender critical (like Trump) and that's what your objection is to the term gender critical - that you just don't agree with it. That's your right, but you keep referring to 'we' as though you are gender critical.

LlynTegid · 17/07/2025 16:28

Standing up for the safety of women. That is how I like to view it.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 16:26

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 16:23

In the real world, most people are sex realists, like we’re oblate spheroid earth realists. In the court in this particular case, various people (in the NHS organisation!) like the DEI woman are claiming not to be so it’s relevant. But Peggie being GC is also relevant.

Loads of people on this thread disagreed with me. Shouted at me. Told me I was rehashing old argument and it was all new to me. (Which it wasn't.)

You told me in a sorts of ways how I was wrong to suggest using that term.

Well. Now we have the prosecuting barrister in the most high profile gender critical case in the UK using the term "sex realist". I rest my case, m'lud.

She didn't need to say it. Nobody else had. She has introduced it to proceedings on purpose.

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ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 16:23

In the real world, most people are sex realists, like we’re oblate spheroid earth realists. In the court in this particular case, various people (in the NHS organisation!) like the DEI woman are claiming not to be so it’s relevant. But Peggie being GC is also relevant.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 16:04

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 15:57

I’m happy she’s using both, in this case. But your premise for this thread, that we can be ‘sex realist’ but not ‘gender critical’ now - well, maybe that’s enough for you but it’s not enough for those of us who understand what the latter means.

And let's remember, that she is a very clever barrister, who is clearly introducing the term "sex realist" on purpose. The other side has never used it.

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DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 16:02

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 15:57

I’m happy she’s using both, in this case. But your premise for this thread, that we can be ‘sex realist’ but not ‘gender critical’ now - well, maybe that’s enough for you but it’s not enough for those of us who understand what the latter means.

Yes. Believe it or not, I also understand what the latter means.

But out there in the real world, I think that "sex realist" would cut through more. And is more accurate, now that they are claiming to literally change sex again.

Anyway, a good day for us sex realists 😀

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ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 15:57

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:54

Nah, I'm good. The barrister prosecuting the currently highest profile GC case uses both 'GC' and 'sex realist'. Happy with that.

I’m happy she’s using both, in this case. But your premise for this thread, that we can be ‘sex realist’ but not ‘gender critical’ now - well, maybe that’s enough for you but it’s not enough for those of us who understand what the latter means.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:54

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 15:40

you don’t quite seem to have got the point - ‘sex realist’ and ‘gender critical’ are not the same thing. The first is absolutely necessary as a minimum base in reality but it is not sufficient.

Nah, I'm good. The barrister prosecuting the currently highest profile GC case uses both 'GC' and 'sex realist'. Happy with that.

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DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:52

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 17/07/2025 15:49

Incidentally @DiamondThrone, Cunningham's Chambers don't list her as a silk.

My mistake, she is a barrister. Pretty good one, at that 😄

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NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 17/07/2025 15:49

Incidentally @DiamondThrone, Cunningham's Chambers don't list her as a silk.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/07/2025 15:40

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:30

That all seems very sensible to me. I am sure @POWNewcastleEastWallsend will be along to shout at you presently.

Meanwhile, I and today's most prominent KC on the subject are happy with the term "sex realist". It is now in court transcript.

you don’t quite seem to have got the point - ‘sex realist’ and ‘gender critical’ are not the same thing. The first is absolutely necessary as a minimum base in reality but it is not sufficient.

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DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:30

NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 17/07/2025 15:20

I'm sex-realist and gender-critical, but I concentrate on making the arguments, rather than labelling myself.

Sex realism is the bare, common sense minimum. Plenty of blokes with dinosaur tendencies are sex realists, but not gender-critical. Some of them are fairly open about subscribing to the older, sexist conception of gender which implies that women's capabilities are determined in a warped, reductive way by their reproductive role.

Sex realism is necessary but not sufficient. I think both terms are useful, because we need to dismantle the notion that gender is worth recording and reporting on. I don't want time, energy and computing power wasted like that. I don't want to spend my life refusing to provide my ‘gender’ on every form I fill in.

I'm not worried that TRAs will succeed in convincing people that someone can change sex (although plenty of men seem to think that a man who is crazy enough to have his penis and testicles removed should be entitled to honorary womanhood - that boundary still needs firm policing). I am worried about the ‘be kind’ brigade asserting that whilst these men can't change sex, their personal, private, inaccessible, unverifiable ‘gender identity’ is equally important, if not more important. They skate over the mountain of objective evidence that there are contexts in which sex matters and females are disadvantaged in order to focus on the perceived tragic destiny of people who claim a trans identity and repeat the ‘most persecuted’ mantra.

That all seems very sensible to me. I am sure @POWNewcastleEastWallsend will be along to shout at you presently.

Meanwhile, I and today's most prominent KC on the subject are happy with the term "sex realist". It is now in court transcript.

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DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 15:22

Oh, here we are again!

NC It was to stop her expressing her G C /sex realist beliefs

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145756244&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

Page 35 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29 | Mumsnet

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145756244

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NasturtiumsAreUnderrated · 17/07/2025 15:20

I'm sex-realist and gender-critical, but I concentrate on making the arguments, rather than labelling myself.

Sex realism is the bare, common sense minimum. Plenty of blokes with dinosaur tendencies are sex realists, but not gender-critical. Some of them are fairly open about subscribing to the older, sexist conception of gender which implies that women's capabilities are determined in a warped, reductive way by their reproductive role.

Sex realism is necessary but not sufficient. I think both terms are useful, because we need to dismantle the notion that gender is worth recording and reporting on. I don't want time, energy and computing power wasted like that. I don't want to spend my life refusing to provide my ‘gender’ on every form I fill in.

I'm not worried that TRAs will succeed in convincing people that someone can change sex (although plenty of men seem to think that a man who is crazy enough to have his penis and testicles removed should be entitled to honorary womanhood - that boundary still needs firm policing). I am worried about the ‘be kind’ brigade asserting that whilst these men can't change sex, their personal, private, inaccessible, unverifiable ‘gender identity’ is equally important, if not more important. They skate over the mountain of objective evidence that there are contexts in which sex matters and females are disadvantaged in order to focus on the perceived tragic destiny of people who claim a trans identity and repeat the ‘most persecuted’ mantra.

DiamondThrone · 17/07/2025 14:46

Well, as it turns out, me and Sandie Peggie's KC agree on the terminology. From today's evidence:

NC Women who are G C / sex realists

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29?reply=145755480&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

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POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 16/07/2025 22:43

We can define "Gender Critical" however we like in this thread but in terms of protection from discrimination under the Equality Act 2010, "Gender Critical Belief" is defined in UK law.

The reason that it is called "Gender Critical Belief" is because that is the term Maya Forstater used in her Witness Statement when taking her case for unfair discrimination to an Employment Tribunal. Perhaps Maya used this term because it was already widely used to contrast with what Maya refers to as "Gender Identity Belief", which she lacks?

I like some of the other terms that have been suggested in this thread. In so far as their meanings coincide exactly with how "Gender Critical Belief" is defined in law we could just say, "X Belief, also known as Gender Critical Belief".

However, to use very different definitions of "Gender Critical Belief" could cause confusion and possibly difficulties because it is a particular definition of "Gender Critical Belief" that is a protected belief under the EA2010.

I think these are the most relevant parts of Maya's Witness Statement and the Employment Appeal Tribunal:

Witness Statement - On the question of belief
In the case of MS MAYA FORSTATER and CGD Europe -and- CGD EUROPE (1) CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT (2) MASOOD AHMED (3) at the London Central Employment Tribunal
23 Oct 2019

(Extracts: some bolding as in the original, some bolding mine)

  1. This statement sets out my underlying belief (“gender critical belief”) as well as the belief that some people subscribe to but which I do not share (“gender identity belief”).

GENDER CRITICAL BELIEF

  1. As outlined in paragraph 67 of the Amended Particulars of my Claim, I believe the following:

(A) “Sex” is a material reality which should not be conflated with “gender” or “gender identity”.

(B) Being female is an immutable biological fact, not a feeling or an identity.

(C) Sex matters.

(D) In particular it is important it is important to be able to talk about sex in order to take action against the discrimination, violence and oppression that still affect women and girls because they were born female.

GENDER IDENTITY BELIEF

Gender identity belief is a system of belief about sex and gender which I do not share

(Maya details the characteristics of this belief - see link)

  1. I do not share this belief. But I believe it meets the conditions for being a protected belief.

  2. It satisfies the criteria in Grainger v Nicholson:

(1) It is genuinely held

(See link for details)

(2) It is a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available

(See link for details)

(3) It is a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.

(See link for details)

(4) It demonstrates cogency, seriousness, cohesion, and importance

(See link for details)

(5) It is worthy of respect in a democratic society, is compatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others.

(See link for details)

  1. People who believe that everyone has an internal gender identity, and that this, rather than facts about their body, is what makes them male or female, may feel they themselves should therefore be comfortable undressing, washing, receiving personal care, being intimately searched or sharing sleeping accommodation with people of the opposite sex who declare that they have the same gender identity.

  2. What I believe is not worthy of respect is the further belief that others who do not share this belief (including children) should be compelled to pretend that they do share it — for example in practical terms that they must not refer to a person’s actual sex in any circumstance, that they can be compelled to refer to someone with pronouns which relate to the opposite sex than the one they really are, that crimes committed by men should be recorded as being committed by women, that individuals must undress, wash, sleep or receive personal care in “single sex” spaces which include members of the opposite sex, that women escaping or recovering from male violence cannot be given the security of a female only shelter or support service, or that people and organisations should ignore a person’s sex as a risk factor where it is relevant (such as in relation to healthcare, pregnancy or blood donation).

  3. In short, I would argue that the belief in gender identity per se is worthy of respect in a democratic society and does not infringe the rights of others per se. However, where it is taken to a further stage of requiring that everyone else share or pretend to share in this belief, I believe it is not compatible with the rights and freedoms of others, in particular the rights of women and girls.

Conclusion

152. Some people believe that what makes a woman is the fact of female biology (“gender critical belief”) Some people believe it is a sense of innate gender identity (“gender identity belief”).

https://www.forstater.com/on-the-question-of-belief/


EMPLOYMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL
Appeal No. UKEAT/0105/20/JOJ
Handed down on 10 June 2021

MAYA FORSTATER vs (1) CGD EUROPE (2) CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT (3) MASOOD AHMED
INTERVENORS: (1) INDEX ON CENSORSHIP (2) EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

(Extracts: some bolding as in the original, some bolding mine)

  1. The Claimant had also put her claim in her ET1 on the alternative basis of a lack of belief. The belief that she did not subscribe to was described by the Tribunal as follows at para 92 of the Judgment:

“...everyone has a gender which may be different to their sex at birth and which effectively trumps sex so that trans men are men and transwomen are women”

  1. We refer to this as the “gender identity belief”. The Claimant accepted that the gender identity belief was a philosophical belief qualifying for protection under s.10, EqA.

Does the Claimant’s belief fall within s.10 EqA?

  1. On a proper application of Grainger V, as analysed above, it seems to us that the only possible conclusion is that the Claimant’s belief does fall within s.10, EqA.

  2. a widely shared belief demands particular care before it can be condemned as being not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

  3. the Claimant’s belief that sex is immutable and binary is, as the Tribunal itself correctly concluded, consistent with the law . . .

  4. Where a belief or a major tenet of it appears to be in accordance with the law of the land, then it is all the more jarring that it should be declared as one not worthy of respect in a democratic society. . . . the position under the common law as to the immutability of sex remains the same; and it would be a matter for Parliament, not a court or tribunal considering whether a belief is protected under s.10, EqA, to declare otherwise.

  5. becoming the acquired gender “for all purposes” within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the Claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex.

117. In relation to the preliminary issue of whether the Claimant’s belief falls within s.10, EqA, we substitute a finding that it does.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf?ref=forstater.com

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf?ref=forstater.com

TheAntiGardener · 16/07/2025 16:49

I’m late to the thread, but count me in as another who thinks GC is perfectly fine as a label. As the Venn diagram on the first page illustrates very clearly, gender is the front on which we diverge from both TRAs and conservatives.

I have no problem with my position being seen first and foremost as a negative stance on gender. I would have a problem being slotted under a banner that could mean different things to different people like sex realism. We are the first to point out that female oppression is sex-based; I’m not keen to adopt a label that could be equally meaningful for those who use biological differences to keep women down.

Nor do I see how using that term opposes those who now say being trans literally means you have the biological sex you claim; they’ll simply say that is reality.

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2025 16:48

potpourree · 16/07/2025 16:32

Yes, this has been a thing for quite some time.
Presumably they expect us to say "oh ok, you're quite right then"!?

I think it's just an attempt to wear us all down so we eventually shut up

They know we're not that stupid

potpourree · 16/07/2025 16:32

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 12:29

Really? They used the term "biological woman" a lot, did they?

Yes, this has been a thing for quite some time.
Presumably they expect us to say "oh ok, you're quite right then"!?

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