“ I am extremely wary of the level of Islamophobia expressed in the uk and the racist undertones to discussions of this topic”

and that tells us to shut up and be quiet.

we were told this when discussing the rape gangs……..

I’m don’t think I’m disingenuous or ignorant. @WithSilverBells do you know any women who wear or have worn head or face covering? @inkognitha are a large proportion of British Muslims particularly conservative? What do you really mean by “conservative”?

For transparency because I can see there is going to be lots of rather stereotyping and supposition as to my nefarious intent. I am not in favour of covering or the oppression of women but I am in favour of freedom to dress or follow the religion you choose. I am extremely wary of the level of Islamophobia expressed in the uk and the racist undertones to discussions of this subject.

@TomeTome Why is the focus particularly on Muslim women?

You have either never seen a burka or you are being disingenuous. My money is on the latter

4 million Muslims in the uk, a large proportion of them are conservative. Sexist sex-based restrictions negatively affect millions, literally millions of women, just in the UK.

280 000 Jews in the UK, most of them secular. Sexist sex-based restrictions only affect a few thousands.

500 000 Sikhs, they have restrictions but not sex-based to my knowledge.

That’s for the numbers.
Then you have the extent of the control.

I have never heard of an hassidic family murdering a family member because she stopped observing. I don’t see the rules getting tighter and tighter for Sikh women. I don’t think Christian’s fundamentalists think it’s ok to throw acid at people’s face.

Not the same, not the same.

@TomeTome That is quite a list. Perhaps we start with the most egregious of oppressions?

Is there any focus on any other group who restrict freedom to wear and be seen as you like? For example, Jewish women who must cover their hair once married, Sikh women who may not cut their hair, women who may not show their legs, or shoulders etc Why is the focus particularly on Muslim women?

Women just can’t win - if we do nothing to help women in other cultures we get desultory “and where are the feminists” from the anti women brigade. If we do try and act we are then far right / racist / / white saviours / too old etc.

Fantastic, it's great that she's using her platform to share women's stories about this.

I think Bee is just being disingenuous, the posts don’t come across as particularly youthful to me.

The strategy with the "Free Your Face" veils should be familiar from the original "Adult Human Female" definition of a woman Billboard: it raised public awareness, it made the mainstream press, it got people talking

Yes. It looks to me like something of a campaign for brand awareness. Slogans and all.

Which is KJK's forte. She's very good at it.

if I recall correctly, she studied theology at university - and used to work in advertising.

This is going to be very, very interesting.

They are not T-Shirts. The specs are a bit of a giveaway.

The strategy with the "Free Your Face" veils should be familiar from the original "Adult Human Female" definition of a woman Billboard: it raised public awareness, it made the mainstream press, it got people talking, it lifted the spirits of a lot of women, it gave them hope and courage.

Of course there were detractors but aren't there always when a woman without the right feminist credentials fails to take her idea to a committee of the great and the good before sticking her head over the parapet?

The difference this time is that it was not planned. Nothing more would have come of a chance remark had not women who are forced to wear the veil responded to a 7 second video clip that went viral.

They say in their messages to KJK that they are pleased that someone is speaking up, glad to know that they are not forgotten and that they want publicity for their plight.

Other women are doing other things to help - the links that you and Arabella have posted are really useful. They have been shared now because you posted about the LWS "Free Your Face" event: so it has proved to be a catalyst for discussion and action here on Mumsnet.

The women who sent messages to KJK have taken risks to do so and maybe none of them will stumble across this thread. Maybe some of them will read but not be able to comment. It is their feelings and opinions about what is said here that I have in mind when I read the posts in this thread.

For anyone who has jumped in here and not read the thread, here is where you can read their words:

https://www.letwomenspeak.org/free-your-faces

We could spend all day discussing the brutalisation of women in the name of religion. Sadly it’s just plain old predictable misogyny across them all.

You cannot, however, deny the special cruelty of a religion that persuades women to cover and hide themselves in tented garments when their men walk around completely free of any such shame, encumbrance or theological compunction.

Don't these so-called believers ever question why such an infinite merciful divine creator would want such a reduced and inequitable existence for women?

@Screamingabdabz I am non discriminatory when it comes to religions, and women's oppression, Christianity has also a bad wrap when it comes to women “jezebels” etc.

Judaism is not much better.

Having said that, sections of Islam are the only faith to call for killings, in the modern age and in fact do it.

“…because female sexual desire and agency does not seem to have occurred as a concept to Islamic thinkers.”

I actually think the opposite - much like horny 13 year teenagers, the exclusively male writers of this cultural hegemony actually think we are all gagging for it. In their heads all women are panting sexually lascivious temptresses out to snare good pious men into evil behaviour at any opportunity. That’s why women are suppressed, silenced and closeted. They think that by gagging and restricting women they are doing God’s work by saving us from our own sinful nature.

And therefore by extension, women who aren’t veiled, and aren’t performing the right amount of ‘modesty’, like the poor girls in Rochdale, are seen as ‘fair game’ for raping and abusing.

So actually those women, those temptresses, and their sexual desire, is very much a central and eternal problem in Islam for all those good blameless innocent men.

Unless you have hard evidence of that, your remarks are defamatory.
As time goes on and GC women have won the more serious cases, you do realise that they will turn to the internet libels don't you?
Your username won't shield you from legal action - and John Pesutto is down a cool $2.3 million dollars for bandying claims about regarding KJK and neo-Nazis... I shall just leave this here:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/may/16/bankruptcy-fears-john-pesutto-moira-deeming-defamation-costs-ntwnfb
You might consider reporting your own post - none of us will want it taken down as evidence against you!

when JKR did that picture with a cigar and everyone IDed her as doing an impression of Andrew Tate (or for the older people, Jimmy Saville)

yeah, not everyone

people with taste recognised the quote…

"Observations of sexism within patriarchal religions not wanted on a feminist board, apparently."

Crikey! Is that the next censorship of wrong think we are going to have to tip toe around?!

Niqab, then.

Also, I see my post has been deleted. Observations of sexism within patriarchal religions not wanted on a feminist board, apparently.

Watch this space . . . if image approved by Mumsnet . . .

🤷‍♀️

Here, share my flask of tea ☕️

You're showing your ignorance. Not only was that appallingly ageist, but (far more importantly) you meant "led" not "lead". The youth of today ... [mutters into his ancient beard and pulls his blanket over his creaking knees).

He's been told it before I know, but other people see it and it's always worth putting it right for them.

Plus I found John Hannibal Smith saying the original quote in that "Best of..." youtube clip - at 4.30 and 5.27 - cigar and all. And at 5.02 he's wearing a very fetching pink and blue striped headscarf and curly wig. What's not to enjoy?

Whatever. You still have to stay out the ladies, mate

He's been told it before, but he's ignoring it because it doesn't fit his 'far narrative' when he trolls women's rights campaigner.

He's also oblivious to the fact that the 'far right' attack is a toothless as a gummy bare, nobody's buying the scare tactic's any more.
KJK is a brave women and she's helping to shine a light on the abysmal life some women in the country are living.

It's time women in the west started paying more attention to the concern's women of other culture's have, now we've put the genderwang crap in the bin, we'll have more time to focus on other women's rights issues.