I cannot go this year, so sad to miss it. We have a miners wives banner which we took last year. Midlands BTW. Have a great day

It's postmodern scepticism of universalism

I want to say that was on the tip of my tongue...

Thanks for the invite. Although I'm nowhere near there, though.

Report back!

But all of you take care. This is next level, in my opinion. The pushback is going to be massive

Post-Modernism at work, it insists that only the individual can speak to their experience and that others should not presume to represent it. It's postmodern scepticism of universalism, and when it comes to other culture's, CRT’s insistence on centring marginalized voices, means nobody white (non-Muslim) can speak for them. It's the philosophy that underpins all of this batshittery.

At the risk of encouraging a derail . . . I have just taken delivery of a new Banner. It will be at Durham Miner's Gala on Saturday along with the AHF Banner that we usually take along.

If you or any other supporters are going to be there, you would be very welcome to join us, walk with us in the procession and help to carry a Banner - there will be other gorgeous Banners too, brought along by groups campaigning for women's sex-based rights 💚🤍💜

I agree.

This objection is anti-feminist and reeks of internalised misogyny and a dehumanising cultural relativism:

Because of the assumption that all who wear the niqab are oppressed

Not so long ago there was a campaign to stop employers forcing women to wear high heels at work.

There are parallels with the "Free Your Faces" campaign:

• high heels damage the body
• employers demanded they be worn because they sexualise and incapacitate women while also being deemed "proper" and "professional"
• some women choose to wear high heels to work and do not feel forced to do so, usually because it has been normalised since adolescence
• feminists argue that even women who willingly choose to wear high heels are oppressed.

I do not recall "real feminists" arguing that the campaign to stop employers forcing women to wear high heels to work was misguided or reprehensible just because some women choose to wear high heels to work, nor that those who make that choice are not oppressed.

Thought experiment:

• what if overnight there were no hijabs, niqabs, chadors, burkas, etc. but instead all the women affected found that those garments had been replaced by high heels?
• also the clock has turned back to a time when employers force women to wear high heels to work.

How is that campaign against women being forced to wear high heels going to play out now?

It would appear from the complaints on this thread that some women would not be deemed worthy of benefiting from that campaign: it would have to explicitly exclude them, in deference to the men who demand compliance from them.

if not, how would it play out differently and why?

My problem with Hijab, Niqab, religious clothing is that if a woman chooses it then that is fine.

I went to schools run by the Sisters of Mercy, they wore a black dress and a black veil. No one seemed to have a problem with that.

Some of you will probably say, "Oh they say it is a choice but..." but I have known white women, brought up in a broadly Christian way who have converted (or reverted if you prefer) to Islam who choose to veil.

I know there are few if any Amish in the UK but why are we not bothered by their oppression? I follow someone on YouTube who was brought up 'old order Amish' and then left. If he wants to visit his mother he has to wear his old Amish clothes.

As an aside, I'm quite tickled by the new let women speak logo.

It's London Weekend Television, isn't it 😄

"I remember when KJK was just Posie Parker on here and was forever starting threads complaining about Muslims."

I can only find find three threads started by KJK that mention Muslims:

20/05/2008
To think Christian fundamentalists that preach Allah is the devil should be charged
with a crime of some description?
I watched these people describe 'proper' muslims as violent and hate filled. Nothing in the news at all, it disgusts me,. One was even saying there will be a civil war in the UK because of muslims living here.
Are they entitled to that opinion or are they just ridiculous people that should be ignored???
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/534026-to-think-christian-fundamentalists-that-preach-allah-is-the-devil

07/09/2010
to think that Muslim Girls should not be wearing headscarves....
at primary school? here
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1036317-to-think-that-Muslim-Girls-should-not-be-wearing-headscarves

08/09/2010
US pastor says burn Koran on 911
stupid is this?
Whilst I think the response of Muslims will be quite ridiculous, rioting, killings etc, what was this man thinking? And how would he feel if Muslims had a burn the Bible day for the anniversaries of the illegal invasions of Muslim countries?
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/1037050-US-pastor-says-burn-Koran-on-911

She appears to have a problem with the attitudes of right-wing patriarchal religions: in particular with the bigotry of some Fundamentalist Christians towards Muslims, and the misogyny of those Muslims who sexualise primary school girls.

Because of the assumption that all who wear the niqab are oppressed

I understand that. But personally, just because some women aren't oppressed by it, doesn't mean you shouldn't help those who are.

And secondly, it's about having the conversation. Hearing from women about their lives, good or bad, can only be a good thing.

Oooh did you also go and scold Bob Geldof when he set up Live Aid? I mean, he wasn’t personally affected by famine but was moved to help? Should people only be involved in helping with causes that personally affected them?

Hello,
In a world that tells us to stay quiet, your courage means everything. Thank you for being our voice,

From the link.

I don't know how people can knock it.

Whether you like KJK as a person or not, there are few women who will stick their neck out like she does.

She walked through a crowd, and addressed two women as she went past, saying free your faces ladies.

It got 24 million views.

Millions upon millions of people talking about women freeing their faces because of a seven second video by one woman.

Which ever way you cut that up, it's quite extraordinary.

I agree with these observations.
but also agree I'd question KJKs motives.

Its a tricky one because while I am sure some (very few?) women who geniunely freely chose... But i dont believe they are in the majority and I also believe some women who claim they chose it freely dont. They choose it due to family/ societal pressure and expectation / in defence of their culture / islam.

My feeling is:
If it was so practical, great, comfy etc why dont we see women everywhere adopting westernised versions of full veils?
God knows enough of us want to escape the male gaze.

Its just not a garment designed with womens comfort / well being in mind...

I've seen it before on here. Women being told they cannot speak on behalf of other women.

It means you get absolutely nowhere. How can you make progress when the only people whose voices you're willing to listen to are those who can't speak.

Okay. But it is including those people, she has testimonies from lots of women who are coerced. She's not guessing what they want, she's being told, by them.

Their point being that they can't speak out. She can, and she has a huge platform.

In what way is KJK not working with all these women who have contacted her with their stories?

Did you read anything that they have said before you presumed to speak on their behalf?

If you did not read what they have said, why not?

If you did read what they have said, why do you think that you know better than them?

I have chosen some of the shorter messages to add as images because the text in the long messages will be difficult to read when they are uploaded to Mumsnet.

If you can be bothered to find out what these women are saying, there are many more messages if you scroll down this page:

https://www.letwomenspeak.org/free-your-faces

I have posted previously that when I read what is being posted on this thread that what I have in mind is that some of those women might be reading this thread.

Has that even occurred to you?

You show such little interest in the women whose messages have prompted this campaign, who clearly support it and feel supported by it, that I see all of your criticisms reflected right back at you.

Edited to unscramble some text.

This will be right up your street then?

IWE: International Womens Echo

We are excited to present the International Women's Echo. This straightforward system echos women’s across social platforms. By signing up, you’ll be paired with a woman from another part of the world who will share your voice with her network. You can follow her social media accounts and amplify her posts across your platforms, with the option to translate if you wish (using translation/grok type tools). In many instances, we’ll suggest that you both follow each other. Think of us as the matchmaker. Complete the form below, and we’ll connect you as soon as possible.

https://www.letwomenspeak.org/iwe

How would you know that there aren't "actual muslim women involved"?

🤔

I remember when KJK was just Posie Parker on here and was forever starting threads complaining about Muslims. Hence I am deeply suspicious.

It doesn't help that this thread doesn't seem to have stayed very focused on the issue of forced veiling and has instead turned into a general "Why I don't like Muslims" thread.

Because of the assumption that all who wear the niqab are oppressed

Because a campaign that does not include any of the people that it alleges to campaign for risks not actually delivering what the “oppressed” need instead what the campaigners think they need.

Also there are many muslims women’s rights groups, muslim feminist, middle eastern feminists etc. Choosing not to work with any of them when claiming to advocate for them is….a choice.

I would feel the same way about a women’s right’s campaign / event that was exclusively male with no women involved.

I'm a big fan of simplification. Can I just ask a question for those who think KJK is in the wrong?

If you have an oppressed people, for whom speaking out is dangerous. Why is it a bad thing for someone who's not oppressed, and not in danger to speak out for them?

This is the American chapter of the Real Gender Critical Facebook group posting isn't it?

And one last thing. It speaks volumes that they are sending those messages to her. It indicates her ability to connect. I'm beginning to think you're just jealous.

For the last time JKJ is acting as a conduit for those "poor oppressed brown women" [couldn't get more patronising mask slipping alert]
She is doing what she can to support and enable them.
Have you read any of their testimonies yet or can't you be bothered? She has and is trying to actually do something.

And what's with the "middle class". Many of KJKs supporters are working class. She allows them to speak for themselves as well.

I speak from a left wing point of view.

I have worked in Women’s only services (DV/SA most of my adult life)

My last job was a leadership role in refuge and outreach.

Women from marginalised communities, from ethnic minorities, including women of colour, and in particular women, from religious communities tended to opt for our generic services. Because they did not trust the other local options.

We had specialist workers, in particular for FGM, and arranged/forced marriage situations.

We also had a Gypsy/Romany specialist.

I built up and got funding for these services, (Trusts) by “spreading the word” via our volunteers often ex service users.

Our service was and is “for women by women” end of.

And the spread word, so to speak drew women far and wide to our service to our staff, and to our trustees.

The agency i lead was a second wave feminism organisation founded in the early seventies. Probably at the time exclusively white women.

I took it back to its founding principles. Without any EDI or diversity controls. As a loud women’s advocacy service, and we drew in women from all communities.

that is the KJK model not sure if she knows that.

What i would like you to understand is that sometimes we have to have difficult conversations, despite our political leanings, and we have to open the door for those who cannot speak.