Non binary

Screwtape Letters, I think.

And that's not a dodgy porn movie, don't worry.

I clearly need to read more C. S. Lewis. I'm ashamed to say I've not got beyond Narnia...

One may or may not agree with C.S. Lewis's theology, but he had a very sharp eye for social and intellectual silliness and dishonesty. Other expressions of his I like are "chronological snobbery" - the idea that more recent automatically means better and more enlightened; and "inner ringer" - the kind of person who likes to be in a special cliquey in-group within an organisation or movement.

I mostly like C S Lewis, though I'm unconvinced by his line on gender in That Hideous Strength (but did he write that when he was still a bachelor?). He makes me think, maybe especially where I don't think I agree.

It's interesting how the different influences on us can change our thinking, if we are prepared to say "why does that person think the way they do; is there anything in what they are saying?". But truth and reality matter, as well as feelings. Allyship can be very adjacent to "my country, right or wrong".

This also chimes with me. It was this conscious cynicism about socially constructed "girliness". It really irritated me to see them all embrace it! I wouldn't have been able to put it quite like that then, but what I was thinking and saying about it wasn't that far off. I do know I recognised it as a kind of feminist perspective.

And I do think that it's sometimes this totally rational wariness that we could even call gender criticism in teen girls that's, ironically, being neatly swept up and packed into a box labelled "non-binary".

A really good, thought-provoking way of putting it.

Totally with you on the concept of so-called allyship. So unhealthy in so many ways. Connotations of war and unquestioning allegiance?! Excellent, just the way to encourage vulnerable people to think. 🙄 Cf. the redefinition of "safe". I find these applications disingenuous at best, and dangerous at worst.

Love the C. S. Lewis quote. I've not heard that one before. I must remember he's not just all wardrobes and witches.

I'm wondering how much of teen girl 'crushing' is performative and a means of bonding iwth other girls as much as it is about actual feelings towards the subjects? That's surely often why the object of attention/affection is a distant figure, a celebrity, etc?

And then I wonder if girls who are classed as 'late developers' may be as much about them working out how they relate to their peers and are sited in groups and networks and society as their attraction or lack thereof towards romantic targets.

Part of 'gender' as I understand it is one's relationship to society and societal expectations.

Back when 'gender' was used as a useful means of describing a societal phenomenon, rather than being reified into a quasi-religious subculture.

I remember everyone going stupid over the Beverly Hills 90210 men. I didn't understand what 15 years old saw in such old men - I've just checked, 21,23 and 26 when it started. The main female characters were much younger and still in their teens. That was weird!

I was supposed to choose one but couldn't understand what was attractive about any of them and it was stressful trying not to settle on a wrong answer.

I'm not a fantastic ally. I'm beginning to dislike the whole concept of "ally", as it seems to lead people to losing their own minds and selves, which is surely unhealthy? C S Lewis once said something like "she lived for others, and you could tell the others by the haunted look in their eyes". Healthy people are still flawed, but they temper their own self interest by trying to understand the people around them and by accepting societal boundaries - though boundaries are not set in stone, they should only be changed cautiously, in my opinion, as there are reasons for them. Those reasons aren't always unquestionable, but it's dangerous to ignore them.

@Catiette
Gosh, your recollections of being a teenage girl struck a chord!
I think being a late developer is a bit like being the only person left sober at a drunken party.
I remember wondering why they were drooling over these really rather awful pop stars etc. Much later, I realised that while they were seeing Rock Star Smoulder and Alpha Male Smirk, I was simply seeing Sulk and Smug.

Please don't apologise for a second! (You tempted me for one awful moment just then to thank you for being such a fantastic "ally", and I don't think I could ever forgive myself for using that ridiculous word in earnest - what a narrow escape! 😜)

Thanks for your reply. I'm old enough for a lot of my adolescent experiences to have blurred into a vague memory of confusion and embarrassment, unless I deliberately dwell on my memories. Please don't worry about my feelings! And I apologise (not that it will resolve anything) for the male gaze. I think it's partly innate (an evolutionary construct) and partly socialisation - page 3 of the Sun, magazines on the top shelf of newsagents, even fashion designed to draw attention. And these days the porn isn't hidden away on the top shelf.

I'm sorry to hear that. I can well imagine boys experiencing it, too, and don't intend to minimise that for a second. While I'm worried typing this may appear to do just that, though, I do wonder if there's a difference in the character and extent of the discomfort on average, & "overall"? Eg. a part of it for girls is becoming subject to the male gaze - that sense of suddenly becoming aware of yourself as... prey to that, in a awful way... My discomfort was very much tied up with how bodies are seen. I don't know - thought experiment! - to what extent it would have been alleviated if I was growing up on whatever that Marvel Universe(?) Amazonian island is called, but I am very sure that would have changed the experience to some degree.

ETA Like you, I worry about how I've explained that - and, again, I really hope it doesn't seem to disregard your own experience. There must be so much unpleasantness unique to the male side that I can't begin to understand, either. And it's impossible to describe anyway, isn't it?

Nobody knows what non binary is because it's utter bollox.
I've always been a tomboy and a biker, I'm still a woman. I just don't fit the modern regressive stereotype of what a woman should be i.e makeup and handbags.
It doesn't make me non binary.

I agree with all this, apart from "another key difference between the male and female experiences of growing up" as my male experience is very similar (but of course expectations of boys and men are different). Obviously the details of my experience are quite different from a girl's, but I recognise all the general aspects of what you describe. I'm not sure if I have explained what I mean very clearly, but it's the best I can do.

I LOVE that clip. Was feeling a bit fed up, so just re-watched. Thank you!

🐔

You mean this clip?

https://x.com/mattwalshblog/status/1532347722111516672?s=46

This is Michelle Forcier.

unherd.com/newsroom/detransitioner-files-lawsuit-against-gender-affirming-clinicians/

Wasn't Diane Ehresaft wondering if chickens cried? or committed suicide?

I would not indulge this as at all. I work in education and the sheer volume of kids who are declaring themselves as NB or trans is off the scale. We often have small friendship groups who have all declared themselves NB or trans. The majority of them revert back over time It's nothing more than a social contagion.

I don’t think it’s harmless at all. I just think that sometimes it’s better not to directly challenge it in individual young people, because they are being told to reject people who disagree by bad actors, and they are vulnerable to social contagion/groupthink/fads.

The thought of having to do work training on Punks and Goths 😂😅

A recent court case involved a male with gender nullification surgery who identifies as “non binary” trying to get special treatment.

“Fourthly, I hear there are non-binary surgeries”

There are. I know at least one female person with a non-binary identity having a double mastectomy to conform to their NB identity.

And male people are now offered either nullification genital surgeries or to keep their penis and also have a cavity inserted into their body.

I think some people want to think that this is a mostly a harmless phase. I don’t consider it that way.

I think we are all being naive about non-binary...

Firstly, as we've established, they say it's not conforming to gender stereotypes.
Which means to be a woman IS conforming to stereotypes. Hence men can be women. You can't bloody be a woman and not conform!

Secondly, there's talk of it being a teen counter-culture movement like punk or goth. Yet it can't be; those were all grass-roots music-led movements. But non-binary isn't one, as the BBC, the council, the police, John Lewis, the establishment are all pushing for it and we are being trained at work about it!

Thirdly, it encompasses so many people who are then automatically part of, and on the side of, the TRA movement, swelling the TRA ranks with confused kids who think they are doing the right and cool thing supporting "Trans rights".

Fourthly, I hear there are non-binary surgeries...

Some great responses here (with a couple of dodgy exceptions). Hope you feel a bit reassured OP and that your son navigates all this with your reassurance that he can be any kind of young man he wants to be.