Can’t we say lesbian anymore?

I suppose it would be too much to reflect that for the show you're referring to, the creator and actor who plays the character in question, and who based the character loosely on herself, prefers to describe herself as queer rather than gay or lesbian, and so the Guardian were largely following her lead?

Incidentally, 'queer' is not some sort of new reclamation (and even if it was, oppressed minorities are entitled to determine what language they wish to use for themselves, and they don't need unanimity to do so). I was listening to something about queer history in California a couple of weeks ago and they played excerpts from various rallies where the word queer was used routinely.

You raise an interesting point. I'm not sure they would be able to after the Supreme Court ruling.

I noticed that, unlike in previous years, they have stayed away from calling it a "gay" dating show, and there are limited references to same sex attraction. Whether that is so, they can include trans contestants without violating the SC ruling, I'm not sure. The most recent series of IKAB was filmed before the guidance was clarified, so I do wonder if that's what is going on (and why they've removed references to it being single sex).

I am in my 60s and will no doubt at some point offend someone because when I was young ‘queer’ was a highly offensive term, as was ‘black’, it was lesbian or homosexual - gay meant happy. ‘Coloured’ was the word to describe non-white.

I am genuinely concerned that I will inadvertently upset someone because I simply can’t keep up with what is and isn’t acceptable. Partly because I don’t come across many of either in my day to day life.

I would assume queer includes bisexual women, too

Unfortunately "queer" is one of those weasel that has been made consumer friendly as being sold as part of the vast rainbow umbrella that any number of identities, sexualities, non anything people can crowd together (effectlively making it meaningless).

But queer polities is in fact something very different. It is about disrupting the accepted "norms" - which isn't saying its being a tiny bit radical, but saying nothing is certian and to claim (for instance) that you are a lesbians just illustrates you are a conformist trapped in a rigid view of the world.

There have been many threads about queer politics on FWR, and interestingly showing the US bias in online information which claims it is all about 1980s gay liberation in the US, rather than an idea "influenced by the work of French post-structuralist philosopher Michel Foucault, who viewed sexuality as socially constructed and rejected identity politics".

And there is no doubt that the influence of queer politics in universities which led to the overthrough of women's studies etc., has led to its concept permeating through places of influence eg newspapers. ie the editor of the Guardian says everything she does is influenced by queer politics. (which has led the Guardian to become anti woman, etc., etc..)

And let's not get started on Judith Butler again!

My above post was meant to quote this

Well that's worrying. That they've stated gender identity. It sounds very much like they are going to have a trans 'lesbian' in there just like they did with I Kissed a Boy.

I really hope we don't end up seeing a group of young lesbians all going along with the 'lesbians can have penis too' narrative.

The BBC received many complaints about the inclusion of a trans man but perhaps the ratings were good so they've decided to go for it again. I really hope not

Doc Stock used to have something like 'Sapphist Sophist, and vice versa' on one of her pages.
Too clever by half, that woman!

To set my stall out - the word lesbian should absolutely not be eradicated and the meaning should not be warped. That being said, forgive my wilful naiveté but I would assume queer includes bisexual women, too. If I had children with a woman, I would feel like I'd really benefit from an antenatal group with other same-sex attracted women. I would feel like an intruder in specifically lesbian spaces (because I would be, I suppose) but I nonetheless have a lot of shared experiences with other women who exclusively date women. Particularly when I have a female partner (or am trying to meet one). I'm not saying I'd presume to be welcome in this example (that's not for me to decide) but I'd be interested to know whether people would consider there's an argument that I'd have a place there.

Also, sapphic is coming back into use in the context of 'sapphic smut' novels. Maybe it'll be the start of a mainstream comeback!?

This.

A well-known groomers and abusers' tactic. Separate your victims from protective, more knowledgeable and experienced support, and then set the ground in their heads for how you would like to use them.

I always thought that the ‘Kool-aid’ expression had come from the Jonestown massacre. It works as a metaphor because it suggests that people who swallow GI are naïve and have been gaslit by a cult. Interesting to learn that the origins of the phrase came from a different historical moment, thank you.

My DD is 20 and a lesbian. I don’t think she uses the word lesbian for herself but she definitely doesn’t use ‘queer’. When men chat her up, she says ‘No thank you, I’m into women’.

(Being a bit facetious, apologies, I use the word lesbian for my homosexual sisters 😀 queer is for idiots or people throwing insults)

Yep - am I a lesbian because the only time a woman has touched my vagina was when the consultant "manually manipulated" the baby out of my pelvis? (I barely make 5'4" but it took three people to hold me down for that!)

I remember an English graduate student using it to refer to herself, as it was around 2008 and living in a trendy US college town. As a lesbian, who prized how ancient and historic our history is, I was really dismayed at throwing it away.
Then I saw 'queer' all-inclusive events and worried that our wonderful women-only culture was being destroyed. And I feared, quite rightly, that the younger lesbians were being detached from the great and wise advice of their older lesbian sisters.
And sadly I was right about it all. You can only get young naive lesbians to accept men (transwomen) as sexual partners by separating them from the older no-bullsh*t ones and painting the latter as vile Terfs and passe.
I love Sapphist too!

That application refernences 'gender identity', not sex.

It's interesting as they say they are looking for 'girls', but there is no mention of Single Sex Exemptions.

Would any male that wanted to apply and was rejected on the basis of not being 'a girl' be able to sue for discrimination?

https://eu.castitreach.com/ag/twofour11/ikag2/welcome.html

https://archive.ph/vB2pp

The correct original use of the phrase as meaning someone mentally deranged by LSD is the perfect metaphor.

BTW For even greater accuracy the Jonestown massacre didn’t even involve Kool-Aid & many were murdered by gunshot.

I agree that the phrase first dates back to that book but it was popularised after the JonesTown massacre and that's what it's most closely associated with so I think it's fair to describe that as its origins as a common expression.

If you google the phrase, the overwhelming majority of linked articles are about Jonestown.

As I already pointed out upthread ‘drinking the kook-aid’ is a reference to taking LSD not to committing suicide.

@cariadlet that’s a really important point - a large number of the deceased were minors.

Has anyone else got this thread mixed up in their mind with the LGBTQ digestives thread?
I've even mentioned Jammie Dodgers in both threads... a bit like a wormhole in space, but more biscuity😄

I hate the expression "drinking the kool aid" because of its origins. Those poor people didn't commit suicide; they were murdered. It isn't voluntary when someone is pointing a gun at you.

If someone I know uses that expression, I always pick them up on it. It's surprising how often people use it without knowing anything about the massacre.

Irony.

I don't remember it going out of fashion. Sapphic has disappeared, however. Maybe due for a comeback?

Older contributors will know that the expression 'drinking the kool-aid' derives from the Acid Tests conducted by the Merry Praksters in the mid 1960s where large groups of people legally consumed LSD shared in Kool-Aid. Tom Wolfe's book The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test documents these parties. It's a much better metaphor that people have become insane after embracing Gender Ideology as if they had taken LSD rather than committed suicide.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_Kool-Aid_Acid_Test

Unfortunately 'drinking the kool-aid' is associated with the Jonestown massacre in 1978 where over 900 members of a cult died by drinking poison contained in a soft drink.
The expression pre-dates the Jonestown massacre, but when I hear the expression 'drinking the kool-aid', it has echoes of Jonestown, so I use 'captured' instead - but that's just me, I'm not saying 'drinking the kool-aid' shouldn't be used.

I think Captured comes from Institutional Capture ; the phenomenon whereby departments of government were co- opted by lobby groups acting for Private corporate interests. Classic example being a health service being dominated by pharmaceutical companies. I think the term originated in the USA.
Open to correction!