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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Islington Council slams 'botched' single sex spaces guidance

394 replies

IwantToRetire · 03/07/2025 20:14

The council argues that the new guidance, which suggests that staff should check a person’s sex at birth before granting access to single-sex services or spaces, is unworkable and risks breaching individuals’ privacy and exposing them to harassment.

"Expecting reception staff in a busy leisure centre or a domestic violence service to determine whether someone is trans, without subjecting them to harassment or breaching their right to privacy, is not practical.

"It risks legal confusion and a culture of suspicion.

"That’s why we have called for the EHRC to pause this botched process – properly listening to trans communities – rather than simply causing further confusion."

Full article at https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/25283099.islington-council-slams-botched-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

'Botched' single sex spaces rules 'risks harassment and discrimination'

Islington Council has strongly opposed new EHRC guidance on single-sex spaces, calling it unworkable and a risk to privacy, safety, and trans rights.

https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/25283099.islington-council-slams-botched-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

OP posts:
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theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 03/07/2025 21:50

.... completely unenforceable law (under which it's impossible to prove that you are cis btw).....

This has happened because people have been allowed to falsify their sex on official documents. We must put a stop to this ridiculous practice.

WithSilverBells · 03/07/2025 21:43

The Court does not underestimate the difficulties posed or the important repercussions which any major change in the system will inevitably have, not only in the field of birth registration, but also in the areas of access to records, family law, affiliation, inheritance, criminal justice, employment, social security and insurance.

I'm not seeing much about 'bathrooms' in Goodwin

HermioneWeasley · 03/07/2025 21:41

@AidaP

off the top of my head, there are the two little girls attacked in separate supermarket toilets by “Katie” Dolotowski. I’m sure there have been others as well.

and the EHRC didn’t climb down from their guidance regarding FWS applying to the workplace regs, they updating their wording because apparently a KC couldn’t understand the original statement and cross reference with the regulations. Which, rather than being a victory, is rather embarrassing for him.

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:40

Angry men at work stomping around in bad fashion choices blustering about using women's toilets.

"It's my human right".

Feck that.

Coatsoff42 · 03/07/2025 21:40

@AidaP

It's matter of ACTUAL balance, aka how much does group A suffers vs group B gains.
Here you have maybe some discomfort for group A - cis woman, vs, and this is per judgement in Goodwin and few others "creating impossible to live in situation" for group B.

well, as long as you can weigh up suffering in your scales of justice, and decide you are suffering more than everybody else. Never mind that the law weighed this up and decided it already. Single sex spaces are a human right.

As long as you are finding more it impossible to live more than the women who are already limiting their lives because they need to stay away from men.

You just get on with doing whatever you want, and justify it to yourself. Don’t reflect on other people around you who are also suffering difficulties and deserve consideration.

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:39

AidaP · 03/07/2025 21:33

EHRC's own legal counsel, and EHRC itself following it, already climbed down from FWS applying to workplace regulations, sorry.

Oh no, you don't trust what Jolyon says, do you?

DuesToTheDirt · 03/07/2025 21:39

And just how overblown is the threat from trans women is best shown by the fact that met has not registered singular instance of a trans woman attacking a cis woman in toilet or single sex space. Literally not once has this happened.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/ (though I have no idea if the victim was cis. Not a woman mind you, a 10-year old girl).

https://www.gbnews.com/news/hospital-staff-told-police-their-patient-was-not-raped-as-alleged-attacker-was-transgender-despite-cctv-showing-assault-in-ward/250941

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

https://reason.com/2024/12/26/women-allegedly-raped-in-prison-by-trans-identifying-inmate-will-have-to-refer-to-attacker-as-she-her/

Would you like more?

Oh, and as for the "fakers", like this one
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/
or Isla Bryson of the pink leggings, well how are we to know which males are "really" trans and which are not? Staff at Isla Bryson's college believed he was trans, and coerced teenage girls into partially undressing for massages.

Hospital staff told police their patient was not raped as alleged attacker was transgender, despite CCTV showing assault in ward

The case has led to a review of the NHS's use of single-sex wards

https://www.gbnews.com/news/hospital-staff-told-police-their-patient-was-not-raped-as-alleged-attacker-was-transgender-despite-cctv-showing-assault-in-ward/250941

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/07/2025 21:37

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:20

I wasn't in the UK in the 90s, can someone who was confirm that section 28 made any mention of trans people?

I don't recall any mention of trans at all. It wasn't a thing in schools. It wasn't a thing in politics on the left - feminist, lesbian, labour party, far left organisations. I was involved in all sorts of political action back in the 80s and of trans rights - not a mention.

It's yet another rewriting of history to suit a current narrative.

PPPPikachu · 03/07/2025 21:36

AidaP · 03/07/2025 20:29

Can you explain how? Because as trans woman my documents state F. Do I need to lift my skirt? Or is this based on the "we can always tell" that gets tons of cis women misgendered on the regular?

It’s a pity that men can’t just be relied upon to respect women’s spaces. It’s such a predatory movement.

People are only misgendered because the whole ideology has gaslighted and groomed people into finding it more difficult to recognise who is male or female - something which 10 years ago was not a problem.

Luckily plenty of us are old enough and wise enough to not buy into this bullshit and we know damn well what sex people are.

I’m honestly sickened that men are yet again putting their selfish wants ahead of women’s rights - the ones we fought for our safety. Almost like throughout the ages men are a problem, even if they pretend to be women.

spannasaurus · 03/07/2025 21:36

AidaP · 03/07/2025 21:33

EHRC's own legal counsel, and EHRC itself following it, already climbed down from FWS applying to workplace regulations, sorry.

No they haven't. They reworded some guidance to make it clearer but the meaning didn't change

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:36

AidaP · 03/07/2025 21:33

EHRC's own legal counsel, and EHRC itself following it, already climbed down from FWS applying to workplace regulations, sorry.

Is that JoMo legal updates you are honouring us with?

Oh dear.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2025 21:34

I believe Aida's argument goes;

Because it was wrong to say no to gay people being open about being in love, it's wrong to say no to men being open about wanting to be in the ladies toilets. Or something,

Because the one thing coming across loud and clear on this thread is that Aida is really really keen on ladies toilets. Personally I think toilets are just one thing on the list of things where single sex support makes a difference and where female people lose out if we lose them.

But Aida, not being female, doesn't see, understand or care about any of this. Aida just doesn't like having a Ladies sign they are not allowed past.

It makes Aida sad to have to face the fact that this whole "I am a woman even though I was born a man" thing has limits.

And it makes Aida angry that society has inexplicably sided with women saying no to Aida even though anyone can see that Aida really really wants this, and surely that's more than enough reason to say yes?

AidaP · 03/07/2025 21:33

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:31

Yep, you right, we will give in to the few loud transphobes and stop existing as ourselves?"

You live in lala land, not reality, if you think that.

Starmer? Streeting?

Disciplinary policy at work? Think women aren't sick enough of you to not get you stopped at work?

Think again.

EHRC's own legal counsel, and EHRC itself following it, already climbed down from FWS applying to workplace regulations, sorry.

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:31

Yep, you right, we will give in to the few loud transphobes and stop existing as ourselves?"

You live in lala land, not reality, if you think that.

Starmer? Streeting?

Disciplinary policy at work? Think women aren't sick enough of you to not get you stopped at work?

Think again.

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:29

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/07/2025 21:23

Final version (as it was originally enacted).
28Prohibition on promoting homosexuality by teaching or by publishing material
(1)The following section shall be inserted after section 2 of the [1986 c. 10.] Local Government Act 1986 (prohibition of political publicity)—
“2AProhibition on promoting homosexuality by teaching or by publishing material
(1)A local authority shall not—
(a)intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality;
(b)promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.
(2)Nothing in subsection (1) above shall be taken to prohibit the doing of anything for the purpose of treating or preventing the spread of disease.
(3)In any proceedings in connection with the application of this section a court shall draw such inferences as to the intention of the local authority as may reasonably be drawn from the evidence before it.
(4)In subsection (1)(b) above “maintained school” means,—
(a)in England and Wales, a county school, voluntary school, nursery school or special school, within the meaning of the Education Act 1944; and
(b)in Scotland, a public school, nursery school or special school, within the meaning of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980.”
(2)This section shall come into force at the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which this Act is

I know you’ll find this a shock but Aida is talking nonsense about trans ppl being mentioned

Also, no "intersex" people are mentioned, it seems.

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:28

And you think that completely unenforceable law (under which it's impossible to prove that you are cis btw),

There's only a few hundred cis people in the UK so we don't care. They might, but if they can find someone to listen for half an hour while they explain what cis is btw, then I'm sure they will be approved for whatever.

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:25

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:20

I wasn't in the UK in the 90s, can someone who was confirm that section 28 made any mention of trans people?

Nope. And nobody said trans people either, it was transsexual or transvestite.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 uses the term "transsexual person".

borntobequiet · 03/07/2025 21:25

AidaP · 03/07/2025 20:43

This feels like it needs a short history lesson.

Transgender people always existed, with varying level of recognition in the law depending on time and space, from annihilation to just another person. We managed to exist in either of those environments.

In UK, even in depth of section 28, we continued to exist and live in out transition just fine, the only variable is amount of harassment we have to endure that's endorsed by the law.

And you think that completely unenforceable law (under which it's impossible to prove that you are cis btw), with no punitive measures, is going to somehow make transgender people to decide "yep, you right, we will give in to the few loud transphobes and stop existing as ourselves?"

You live in lala land, not reality, if you think that.

And the law on top of everything is temporary, the reading you want of FWS puts us entirely in the same position which resulted in Goodwin, and creation of trans rights. Except now there is even more precedence in ECHR for us.

See ya in the loos that apparently bother you so much.

I think you’re pitching a script for a Doctor Who episode.

Just find a gender neutral/unisex loo, silly.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/07/2025 21:23

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:20

I wasn't in the UK in the 90s, can someone who was confirm that section 28 made any mention of trans people?

Final version (as it was originally enacted).
28Prohibition on promoting homosexuality by teaching or by publishing material
(1)The following section shall be inserted after section 2 of the [1986 c. 10.] Local Government Act 1986 (prohibition of political publicity)—
“2AProhibition on promoting homosexuality by teaching or by publishing material
(1)A local authority shall not—
(a)intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality;
(b)promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.
(2)Nothing in subsection (1) above shall be taken to prohibit the doing of anything for the purpose of treating or preventing the spread of disease.
(3)In any proceedings in connection with the application of this section a court shall draw such inferences as to the intention of the local authority as may reasonably be drawn from the evidence before it.
(4)In subsection (1)(b) above “maintained school” means,—
(a)in England and Wales, a county school, voluntary school, nursery school or special school, within the meaning of the Education Act 1944; and
(b)in Scotland, a public school, nursery school or special school, within the meaning of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980.”
(2)This section shall come into force at the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which this Act is

I know you’ll find this a shock but Aida is talking nonsense about trans ppl being mentioned

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:22

Is Aida American or are we just getting trans-Atlantic Reddit rubbish?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2025 21:21

@AidaP

I am a person of female body. I share neither sex nor gender with you.

Can you explain what you believe what we have in common that I should be forced to accept you in situations where I am not forced to accept other male-bodied people, or why I should not be allowed to set up a mentoring group where people who share the same sex as me can share our challenges and experiences and envision how we can overcome them, and why you do not believe I should have the right to say I only want rape/abuse counselling or intimate care from someone who shares my sex?

I understand who you believe you are, I think. What I don't understand is why you believe that gives you the right to define who I am as well.

Igneococcus · 03/07/2025 21:20

I wasn't in the UK in the 90s, can someone who was confirm that section 28 made any mention of trans people?

WithSilverBells · 03/07/2025 21:20

Cornishpotato · 03/07/2025 21:19

having gays and lesbians in their bathrooms.

When I have gay and lesbian guests I have them in my bathrooms.

I'm sure when they use single sex services no one actually knows what their sexuality is.

A man coming in the women's though, like Robin White?

Ouch

AidaP · 03/07/2025 21:19

Coatsoff42 · 03/07/2025 21:13

I didn’t make fun of anything.

I described lived experience and triggering situations, which you don’t want to hear.

I do hear them just fine, even in the paragraph I posted it acknowledges them.

But it also states that they are not in balance of the distress the opposite causes to transgender individuals.

And this is how actually balance of laws works, not the nonsense Falkner states like this is some "winner takes it all contest". It's matter of ACTUAL balance, aka how much does group A suffers vs group B gains.

Here you have maybe some discomfort for group A - cis woman, vs, and this is per judgement in Goodwin and few others "creating impossible to live in situation" for group B.

And just how overblown is the threat from trans women is best shown by the fact that met has not registered singular instance of a trans woman attacking a cis woman in toilet or single sex space. Literally not once has this happened. There were some chancers (2 to be exactly, across 21 years of data) who tried to "transition" after being caught, but that's not the same, is it? But it gets thrown out as prime example of it anyway.

That misinformation and sensationalisation is majority of your discomfort, not reality. If you stepped out of an echo chamber and put some critical effort into the data coming in, your perception would shit. I welcome you to come to some of the more open trans meetups and meet the people there.