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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans girl winning every race at primary sports day

235 replies

Minibea · 01/07/2025 21:47

My DD is 8 so in year 3 at primary school. There is a male child who self-identified as a girl from roughly age 6 and has socially transitioned at school. I’ve discussed this with DD along the lines of the importance of being inclusive, respecting someone right to be addressed in the way that they prefer etc but have also been clear with her that this child is biologically male and that you can’t change your sex. All fine.

Yesterday was school sports day. The child in question won every single race again the girls. DD is quite sporty and was up there with a chance of winning in all the races so is disappointed.

I don’t want to be “that” parent with school, nor rock the boat with the parents, but as the kids get older I’m concerned about the message this is sending and also the implications for bathroom arrangements, residential trips etc etc. So I want to ask school to provide/confirm their policy around all of this but what exactly do I need to see/hear? And what “should” the policy be so I can sense check it against what’s actually happening? An idiots guide would be most welcome!

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 23:13

WithSilverBells · 01/07/2025 23:08

If you have a girls-only race and you allow a boy to take part, then you are teaching all the girls and the boys watching and all the parents that the collective needs of those girls are secondary to those of a single male. The trusted adults in that school are publically humiliating the girls and the misogyny is so deeply ingrained that they are, presumably, completely oblivious to it.

Spot on

Zapx · 01/07/2025 23:12

Be that parent OP! If the school are choosing to segregate the races on the basis of sex, then that is what they should do. It’s the patriarchy in action in my opinion - an entitled male child is being allowed to take girl’s titles and places. We need to show girls that they matter.

Minibea · 01/07/2025 23:10

Thanks everyone for your opinions and for those who provided helpful links etc. I’m going to sleep on it. I totally agree that it is “only” sport day and it’s meant to be fun, this isn’t competitive sport and we’re not aiming for the Olympics and the thousand other reasons for being very British and not making a fuss. But by the same token, if all things are equal why aren’t boys and girls racing together anyway?The fact that they race separately from Reception must mean something. FWIW I like the kid, I like the family, I don’t care that she wants to use a girls name, wears the girls uniform etc. but I also feel that if we set this precedent for 8 year olds, then when they all go to secondary and we’re talking about 15 year olds, the precedent will already have been set.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 01/07/2025 23:09

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 01/07/2025 22:47

And also, don't forget it's a primary school sports day. Really it's meant to be fun, not about who has a competitive advantage over who. There is always one who goes before the whistle and they don't tend to get penalised for it. Thai year a kid lost his shoe and got another chance in the next race. The main thing for the school will be making sure everyone has a good time and participates....so if the trans kid wants to race against the girls then let him....

It’s meant to be a good time for the girls too.Hmm
Any male children who want to compete should certainly be allowed to - against the other boys even if they are wearing ‘girls’ clothes.

WithSilverBells · 01/07/2025 23:08

If you have a girls-only race and you allow a boy to take part, then you are teaching all the girls and the boys watching and all the parents that the collective needs of those girls are secondary to those of a single male. The trusted adults in that school are publically humiliating the girls and the misogyny is so deeply ingrained that they are, presumably, completely oblivious to it.

CagneyNYPD1 · 01/07/2025 23:07

GingerBeverage · 01/07/2025 22:49

If they’re all equal physically, why does the WHO have separate growth charts for boys and girls?
You can check at the back of the red book.

Bang on the money.

minnienono · 01/07/2025 23:01

Be that parent. There’s a reason children are segregated by sex even at primary for sports

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:57

And this one

Sex Differences in 1600-m Running Performance and Participation for Children Aged 6–12 yr

Christensen, Mandy W.; Griffiths, Christine M
Summer 2025

journals.lww.com/acsm-esm/fulltext/2025/07000/sex_differences_in_1600_m_running_performance_and.5.aspx

Abstract

Introduction
In children, females participate in sport and physical activity less than males and have lower peak oxygen intake values. How this sexual dimorphism in the aerobic capacity of children affects the aerobic performances of children in a 1600-m race and whether the reported discrepancy in sport and physical activity participation accounts for any sex differences in aerobic performance are unknown. The purpose of this study was to 1) identify sex-based differences in aerobic running performance at 1600 m for children aged 6–12 yr and 2) investigate sex-based differences in participation in children and any relationship between participation and sex differences in aerobic performance.

Methods
We compared 1600-m running velocities (in m·s−1) and participation for 3621 children in the United States in grades 1–6 (ages 6–12 yr) for the years 2007–2014 that were obtained from a publicly available website (runnercard). We correlated the female participation with the performance difference between the sexes for each year and grade. We also created a mathematical model to predict the mean velocity () needed to equalize the sex difference in performance if participation was equalized.

Results
Male children were faster (3.00 ± 0.53 m·s−1) than female children (2.77 ± 0.49 m·s−1) at every grade level, with an average difference of 7.7% (P < 0.001). Participation was lower for female children (46.2%; χ2 = 13.0, P = 0.02) and there was no correlation between female participation and the performance difference between sexes (Pearson’s r= 0.255, P = 0.96). needed to equalize the sex difference in performance if participation was equalized was 4.39 m·s−1, which was greater than the observed female mean plus two standard deviations.

Conclusions
Male children are faster than female children at running 1600 m at ages 6–12 yr. This sex difference was not a result of lower female participation and suggests that innate physiological sex differences may be responsible.

Sex Differences in 1600-m Running Performance and... : Exercise, Sport, and Movement

cy in sport and physical activity participation accounts for any sex differences in aerobic performance are unknown. The purpose of this study was to 1) identify sex-based differences in aerobic running performance at 1600 m for children aged 6–12 yr a...

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-esm/fulltext/2025/07000/sex_differences_in_1600_m_running_performance_and.5.aspx

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:56

SEX BASED GRIP STRENGTH DIFFERENCES IN CHILDREN

Sex Differences in Grip Strength From Birth to Age 16: A Meta-Analysis
James L Nuzzo

15 February 2025

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12268

Conclusion
Boys have greater grip strength than girls from birth onward. Prior to age 11, the sex difference in grip strength is small-to-moderate in size, with female grip strength about 90% of male grip strength. At age 11, the sex difference in grip strength decreases because girls reach puberty earlier than boys. Nevertheless, boys still retain a strength advantage at age 11. After male puberty, the size of the sex difference in grip strength increases markedly. At age 16, female grip strength is 65% of male grip strength. With a few exceptions, the observed effect sizes have been largely consistent across time and place. Together, with other findings from the biological and medical literature, the current results suggest a largely biological origin of the sex difference in grip strength in children and adolescents.

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:55

Another study from Gregory Brown and team regarding children. They have now covered running, swimming and now other track events.

Sex-based differences in shot put, javelin throw, and long jump in 8-and-under and 9–10-year-old athletes

Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw & Ina Shaw
Published 14 December 2024

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsc.12241

Highlights

Males in the 8-and-under age group outperformed females of the same ages by 19.3% in shot put, 32.6% in javelin throw, and 4.7% in long jump.
Males in the 9–10-year-old age group outperformed females of the same ages by 6.5% in shot put, 23.5% in javelin throw, and 3.9% in long jump.
The average differences between the first through fourth place finishers within males and within females were smaller than the sex-based differences between males and females in all but 9–10-year-old shot put.

CONCLUSION
In conclusion, although some have stated that the prepubertal sex-based differences in athletic performance are immaterial or absent, the present data indicate that in the 8-and-under group and 9–10-year-old age group, males achieved greater distances in shot put, javelin throw, and long jump. Although some females in these age groups threw or jumped farther than some males, the average distances for shot put, javelin throw, and long jump for males were farther than for females; the best performing males threw and jumped farther than the best performing females and the average differences between the sexes were larger than within sex differences for the top 4 finalists (i.e., those in closest competition for a medal) for all events and ages except shot put in the 9–10-year old age group. As throwing and jumping are key components of many sports, these sex-based differences in shot put, javelin throw, and long jump between males and females ages 10-and-under should be considered when sport governing bodies and policy makers consider the issue of sex-segregated sporting categories.

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:54

ON PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES IN CHILDREN

Sex-based differences in swimming performance in 10-years-old-and-under athletes in short course national competition

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12237

Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw & Ina Shaw
Published 7th December 2024

Conclusion
The present data indicates that prepubertal males swim 1.16%–2.63% significantly faster than females in the 50 yd (45.7), 100 yd (91.4), and 200 yd (182.9 m) freestyle, 100 yd backstroke, 50 yd breaststroke, 100 yd butterfly, and 100 and 200 yd IM, but not in the 500 yd (457.2 m) freestyle, 50 yd butterfly, 100 yd breaststroke, or 50 yd backstroke (although the differences in the 50 yd backstroke approached significance). The present data do not explain why there are sex-based differences in some, but not all, of these events. Based on the present and previous data indicating that prepubertal males swim faster than prepubertal females in most events, there seems to be little justification to eliminate sex segregated competition in youth swimming.

Furthermore, this study serves as a valuable contribution to our comprehension of the intricate interplay between sex differences and swimming performance in prepubertal children. Although further research is imperative to refine and expand upon our current understanding, the findings presented here underscore the significance of considering sex-specific factors in the assessment of swimming performance in prepubertal children. Acknowledging and investigating these differences not only advances our knowledge in sports science but also holds potential implications for training strategies tailored to individual needs. As we delve deeper into this realm, the multifaceted nature of sex-related influences on swimming performance in prepubertal children becomes increasingly apparent, allowing for more targeted and effective approaches in the pursuit of athletic safety, inclusion, and excellence.

Point made by author on twitter:

"In 8 out of 12 events boys swam significantly faster than girls and there were no events where girls were significantly faster. More evidence that sex matters in sports!"

https://x.com/BrowngaGreg/status/1865528288644382872

This is one of the main points:

Males were 1.16%–2.63% faster (p < 0.05; effect sizes 0.376–0.596) than females in the 50 yards (yd; 45.7 m), 100 yd (91.4 m), and 200 yd (182.9 m) freestyle, 100 yd backstroke, 50 yd breaststroke, 100 yd butterfly, and 100 and 200 yd IM. There were no significant sex-based differences in the 500 yd (457.2 m) freestyle, 50 yd backstroke, 100 yd breaststroke, or 50 yd butterfly. The individual fastest time for a female was faster than for a male in the 50, 100, and 500 yd freestyle, 50 and 100 yd backstroke, 50 and 100 yd butterfly, and 100 yd IM.

Although in eight out of 12 events the individual fastest times were from females, in eight out of 12 events the average male times were significantly faster.

https://x.com/BrowngaGreg/status/1865528288644382872

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 01/07/2025 22:54

Sometimeswinning · 01/07/2025 22:31

At this age I think it’s all equal still. My dd is faster than some of the boys in her year and there’s a girl who often wins all the mixed races.

At my school the top 3 fastest in my class are 2 boys and one girl. It’s always close.

Having just spent the weekend with my 7yo twin niece and nephew, both of whom have gotten into wresting since I last saw them, I can promise you its not equal. There's a strength to my nephew that my niece just does not have.

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:53

Here is some of Brown’s research published February 2024.

Sex-based differences in track running distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups
Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw, Ina Shaw
5th February 2024

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12075^

"In conclusion, although some have stated that sex-based differences in athletic performance do not arise until puberty, the present data indicate that in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups males run faster than females in distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m. While some females in these age groups are faster than some males, the average male finalists are faster than the average female finalists, and the fastest males are faster than the fastest females. As running is a key component of many sports, these sex-based differences between prepubertal males and females should be considered when sport governing bodies and policy makers consider the issue of sex-based sporting categories"

Pyjamatimenow · 01/07/2025 22:53

I’m a bit suprised they gave single sex races. In DD’s primary they mix all the races even in year 6.

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:51

For you OP

MALE CHILDREN ADVANTAGES IN SPORT
Danish study on VO2 max and LBM in children from age 6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

Maximum oxygen uptake and objectively measured physical activity in Danish children 6-7 years of age: the Copenhagen school child intervention study

Eigberg, Hasselstrom, Gronfeldt, Friberg, Svensson, Anderson
October 2005

Objectives: To provide normative data on maximum oxygen uptake (Vo(2)max) and physical activity in children 6-7 years of age and analyse the association between these variables.

Methods: Vo(2)max was measured in 366 boys (mean (SD) 6.8 (0.4) years of age) and 332 girls (6.7 (0.4) years of age) from preschool classes in two suburban communities in Copenhagen, during a progressive treadmill exercise. Habitual physical activity was measured with accelerometers.

Results: Boys had higher Vo(2)max both in absolute values (1.19 (0.18) v 1.06 (0.16) litres/min (+11%), p<0.001) and relative to body weight (48.5 (6.0) v 44.8 (5.6) ml/kg/min (+8%); p<0.001) than girls. The difference in Vo(2)max between boys and girls decreased to +2% when expressed relative to lean body mass (LBM). Absolute Vo(2)max was related to LBM, body mass, and stature (all p<0.001). Boys were more physically active than girls (mean counts +9.4%, p<0.001), and even when boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys were more active. The difference in physical activity between the sexes was higher when sustained activity of higher intensity was compared.

Conclusions: Vo(2)max is higher in boys than girls (+11%), even when related to body mass (+8%) and LBM (+2%). Most of the difference in Vo(2)max relative to body mass was explained by the larger percentage body fat in girls. When boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys engaged in more minutes of exercise of at least moderate intensity.
_
Australian children

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=021cccdaed57d120bb05bac71c05ee82b0c5b315

Greek ( for those who have access)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2015.1088577?needAccess=true

This link has many links and is particularly good for children’s advantages.

https://www.ultraphysical.us/p/beyond-t-sex-based-differences-in

Gregory Brown, Professor Exercise Science (primarily Exercise Physiology) at the University of Nebraska at Kearney.

I will post several more studies in another post

Helpmeplease2025 · 01/07/2025 22:50

I would have gone absolutely silent; no cheering, no congratulations, just silence. Pointed, silence.

And followed up with the school after. Why do girls have to be sacrificed for the poor mental health of some boys.

GingerBeverage · 01/07/2025 22:49

If they’re all equal physically, why does the WHO have separate growth charts for boys and girls?
You can check at the back of the red book.

ZenNudist · 01/07/2025 22:49

How bizarre. At our school they don't have boys and girls races. Girls win just as much.

Finteq · 01/07/2025 22:48

The school should be smarter.

At this age there is no reason why the races should be separated anyway. And there should be teams.

My kid in primary- they didn't have any races where the kids ran as individuals and they were all team.sports with points added up at the end.

My daughters team lost even though she was really good. But it was all mixed.

ChateauMargaux · 01/07/2025 22:47

It is not necessary to justify why boys and girls should have separate races - the school segregates sporting activities by sex, no child has a gender recognition certificate.

Do not get drawn into the discussions ... for the past X years, Milltown Primary school has had boys races and girls races, this year, 15 girls in year 3, who missed out on having a girls race, because 1 boy identifies as a girl. The school is telling them that this boy is more important than them, he received medals, was congratulated and the girls had to run in the same race as him, pretending that they also believe that he is a girl.

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 01/07/2025 22:47

And also, don't forget it's a primary school sports day. Really it's meant to be fun, not about who has a competitive advantage over who. There is always one who goes before the whistle and they don't tend to get penalised for it. Thai year a kid lost his shoe and got another chance in the next race. The main thing for the school will be making sure everyone has a good time and participates....so if the trans kid wants to race against the girls then let him....

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:46

OP

Be that parent!

With the evidence to show that male children have advantage why on earth should girls lose fairness in their sports?

Codlingmoths · 01/07/2025 22:44

Sometimeswinning · 01/07/2025 22:31

At this age I think it’s all equal still. My dd is faster than some of the boys in her year and there’s a girl who often wins all the mixed races.

At my school the top 3 fastest in my class are 2 boys and one girl. It’s always close.

If you look at the athletics records in my country for kids the boys have the faster age group records from the youngest the records start - u7. It’s a tiny difference at that age and grows. Then you take the average non athletics kid and the average boy is faster because they run more. The sporty boys are also faster than the sporty girls with an occasional exception, but the sporty boys have running every day - footy, basketball. Cross country I think based on watching the club events girls and boys are more even. But both the u7s and u8s (the age groups I watch the finish for) still have boys come in first.

zanahoria · 01/07/2025 22:44

I don’t want to be “that” parent with school, nor rock the boat with the parents,

I am guessing there are others of the same mind

The law is on your side now

In the words of our Prime Minister, they should just get on with it.

Helleofabore · 01/07/2025 22:43

Sometimeswinning · 01/07/2025 22:31

At this age I think it’s all equal still. My dd is faster than some of the boys in her year and there’s a girl who often wins all the mixed races.

At my school the top 3 fastest in my class are 2 boys and one girl. It’s always close.

It is is not true that boys do not have male advantage over girls in sports. It has been shown very clearly from 6 years old.

Just because your daughter is so exceptional that she is beating boys, doesn’t mean that male people should be allowed to compete even in female children’s sports.

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