Womens hour on Ash Regan's private members bill in the Scottish Parliament

A government-commisioned report on Europe's greatest experiment in legalisation. Excerpt below (I've not read the report as a whole, and recognise it's much more nuanced):

As regards improving prostitutes’ working conditions, hardly any measurable, positive impact has been observed in practice. At most there are first, tentative signs which point in this direction. It is especially in this area that no short-term improvements that could benefit the prostitutes themselves are to be expected. The Prostitution Act has not recognisably improved the prostitutes’ means for leaving prostitution. There are as yet no viable indications that the Prostitution Act has reduced crime. The Prostitution Act has as yet contributed only very little in terms of improving transparency in the world of prostitution.

https://www.bmfsfj.de/resource/blob/93346/f81fb6d56073e3a0a80c442439b6495e/bericht-der-br-zum-prostg-englisch-data.pdf

Hah - you can talk!

How about acknowledging your own cuddly little buzz words?

Like “sexwork” - to make prostitution sound like it’s a professional career choice, akin to accountancy but without the qualifications.

See also “sexworker” (drug-addicted, trafficked, coerced victims of criminal enterprises).

Or “client” (sleazy, often violent, shitheads, subjecting the “sexworkers” to increasingly risky assaults whilst exposing their unknowing partners to the risk of future infertility or worse).

If it was decriminalised, consultancy firms would see fantastic opportunities for advising such businesses. If they’re happy enough to encourage a pharmaceutical firm to actively target high value prescribers addicts for increased opioid sales, there’d certainly be little hesitation in advising firms owning a chain of brothels, would there?

Purdue engaged McKinsey to recover lost OxyContin sales. Purdue retained McKinsey to conduct a rapid assessment of the underlying drivers of OxyContin performance, identify key opportunities to increase near-term OxyContin revenue and develop plans to capture priority opportunities. This 2013 effort was called Evolve to Excellence, or “E2E,” and included McKinsey advising Purdue on how to “turbocharge” the sales pipeline for OxyContin by, among other strategies, intensifying marketing to High Value Prescribers.

edited to add I’m genuinely interested to know if @Christinapple would buy shares in such a firm. Wasn’t just a rhetorical question.

Any society that places any woman in a position that she believes that her only option for survival is prostitution is a society that has failed women. Any society that allows any man to believe that it is acceptable to pay for sex is a society that has failed women.

Interesting. And depressing. As are my own and Chris' examples. Whatever the best way forward, there's an inescapable universality to it. But I think that, too, is an argument for increasing the stigma surrounding it for buyers. We'll never eradicate it, but we needn't bloody encourage and normalise it. And re: DrB's post above - the awful "buy 9, get one free" attitude etc. - that's exactly what's happening in eg. Germany. There's a very disturbing article about it over there that I can't bear to go looking for.

Another more subtle approach to #youropinion: probe the interviewee instead.

"And could I ask why you use the term 'prostitution'? You'll be aware that many of our listeners may find 'sex work' a more respectful descriptor."

A much more meaningful and natural way of going about things.

(I'd love that job, btw. Let me try! Please!!! Lemmmeeee!)

👏👏👏👏👏

I stopped supporting Amnesty International as a donor because their research on the subject of prostitution in a large part was informed by Alejandra Gil who trafficked women to work in brothels. Unsurprisingly their research backed the call for brothel owners and pimps to be decriminalised. Their interests do not lie with making those selling sex safer but protecting those who make money from the people selling sex

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/22/pimp-amnesty-prostitution-policy-sex-trade-decriminalise-brothel-keepers

If a client is capable of theft then I don't see how he is going to be deterred from a law against stealing.

If a client is capable of murder then I don't see how he is going to be deterred from a law against killing.

Etc.

Arguments using the "laws don't 'prevent' crimes" line are almost as irritating as #otheropinions. I think we can assume that everyone reading knows they don't.

And yes, it's to do with sex work - "brothel", it says. To be fair, though, my example is isolated, as is yours.

For me, it comes down to one thing above all else:

Don't tell me that sex work is work unless 1) you're just as happy for your own mother/sister/daughter/wife to do it as you are be to see them in any other job, and 2) you can tell me about the legislation surrounding contracts and provision of adequate PPE in it, as exist for any other job.

PS I'm not saying don't include balance. Just do it while showing respect to the interviewee and your listeners! Replace the endless teenaged #thatsyouropinions with just a few well-timed, concise and above all natural acknowledgements of complexity. Ensuring both balance and fluidity is a fundamental skill for an interviewer, and one that the presenter of Woman's Hour really should have.

Is this related to sex work?

In Nordic Model France, 10 sex workers were murdered in a 6 month period. The Nordic Model increases the risk of violence and murder because of the precautions taken to prevent being caught which include the meeting taking place in more secluded locations and the sex worker having less legal options to vet whoever places bookings.

https://pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

A client, who thankfully has just been jailed, threatened a sex worker in Nordic Model ROI with a knife. Somehow the Nordic Model wasn't able to prevent or discourage him from placing a booking with her- if a client is capable of violence then I don't see how he is going to be deterred from a law against paying for sex.

www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/man-who-exploded-threatened-cut-34792671

Re: Austria, btw - do you remember reading about this?:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68392233

Police in Vienna are investigating the deaths of four women and a teenage girl in a 24-hour period.

Three women were stabbed to death by a man in a brothel in Austria's capital on Friday. A suspect was arrested.

Says it all, to me.

The "That's one opinion" is increasingly irritating me, and can make it hard to listen. I spent this interview snapping, "You don't SAY!" at the computer every time Nuala said it. I mean, it's self-evident, isn't it: you're interviewing one person with a strong opinion on a controversial issue specifically in order to hear their strong opinion - with which others will, by definition, disagree! You don't have to pepper the interview with it like a margin of pedantic footnotes.

In this context, the sheer quantity of "That's your opinion"s come across as rigid disclaimers - absurd, unnecessarily hostile to the interviewee, and seemingly a pitiful plea for tolerance from potentially volatile listeners.

Meanwhile, the flow of the conversation is disrupted, and the interview becomes stilted and staccato, limiting the clarity and fluency with which the view you invited them on to share can actually be shared.

Lastly, I do think it has the dangerous effect of legitimising and increasing polemical thinking. Instead of inviting listeners to listen and reflect on a fully formed opinion, drawing their own opinions and potentially learning from it (whether in changing their minds or just strengthening their own arguments)... they're just shunted back towards an irritable focus on their own disagreement: that's me she's referring to! I don't share that opinion! And quite right, too! Bizarre way of thinking!

It all feels like a very sad indictment of where we are as a society.

A reminder of one woman’s damascene moment:

How Faika El-Nagashi went from Sex Work is Work to abolitionist
9 replies

Mermoose · 12/05/2025 07:36
What started as an attempt to name and confront the exploitation of migrant women had become something else entirely: a celebration of the system itself. A cover-up of its brutality, complicit with a structure it has no intention of disrupting—rebranded in the language of autonomy, choice, and pride. For over a decade, I was one of the most prominent voices in Austria arguing for the “sex work is work” framework. I no longer believe that rights language can compensate for the inherent risks at the core of this system—especially when everyone has become so skilled at explaining the violence away. But it’s not incidental. It’s structural. And we have to stop protecting the systems that make it inevitable.
https://open.substack.com/pub/faikaelnagashi/p/what-i-want-to-say-about-sex-work

Decriminalising means that prostitution becomes another business model but without the slightest possibility that, for example, health and safety laws will apply or be enforced. What kind of employment contracts will the women have to sign? The capitalist profit driven business model means that there’d be some men or maybe some sharp McKinsey consultants advising on strategy to expand and drive revenue. A need to increase advertising, using TikTok to attract younger customers, encouraging new customers with two for one vouchers, buy 9, get one free, great you drive demand, but this means you need to increase supply. So more customers means a need for more prostitutes, but wait what if more women don’t want to lie on their backs getting f*&ked by men all day, so what is a business to do? Trafficking vulnerable women from economically depressed countries is one option. Encouraging drug addiction is another. Younger women unaware of what theyre signing up for maybe. The end result is further normalisation of the idea that women’s bodies are there to be purchased to serve men. More women being exposed to violence, degradation, exploitation.

I mean @Christinapple what isn’t there to like? Maybe you’d like to buy shares in these businesses once they go to an IPO to raise funds for bigger premises? The ROI is sure to be double digits. And rest assured that it’s always the workers who get the big bucks, isn’t it? Not a model where the CEO and senior exec rake in the millions in board approved annual bonuses for increasing revenue.

really pedantic point. but it irks me
there is no such thing as a private members bill at Holyrood - that’s Westminster
Holyrood has both private bills and member’s bills. Ash Reagan has brought forward a member’s bill.

I do not rate Nuala in the slightest. Such a disappointment after Emma B. Nuala is the epitome of the why can’t we all just get along liberal ‘progressive’ including the likelihood that she’s in favour of sex positivity and sex work is work mantra. I hardly listen to WH now.

Hypothetically I suppose that complete decriminalisation might be possible as long as prostituted women and their pimps had to be in line with all relevant laws around employment, so tax, NI, H&S laws etc? (Which would obviously not be possible so it would need to stop anyway...)

I think you are showing a lack of understanding about Ireland, Christinapple, when you write that 'the [sic] church over there has a lot more power [In NI and the Republic] than it does in Britain'.

There is not one church in Ireland, and there is a huge difference between churches in NI and in the Republic. The most obvious one is denomination - NI is [decreasingly] majority Protestant, the Republic majority [nominally] Catholic. Within that, there is a range of Protestant denominations, sects and groupings in NI, with a range of attitudes to social issues. In the Republic, the power of the Catholic church is hugely diminished - the church is seen as being at odds with current liberal social policy on matters such as transgenderism.

The idea that the catholic church has enough power to push the Nordic Model, or anything else, is decades out of date.

There could be a number of potential explanations for the low conviction rate for buying sex. There may be reasons similar to those for the low conviction rate in related crimes e.g. those 'buzz words' that irk you - rape and violence against women.

There would have to be detailed study to obtain the 'facts and evidence' both you and I value before jumping to the conclusion that it is the legislation, rather than its enforcement, which is at fault.

One obvious explanation is that prostitution is such a ubiquitous crime - there are hundreds of women, many of them trafficked into the country, forced to work in the brothels that exist all over Ireland, some of them are what are known as 'pop-up' brothels, which advertise their location, and then shut up shop and move on to another location. These are slick operations, and it must be very difficult to keep track of them and get evidence for a conviction.

But the fact that it's difficult to get a conviction doesn't mean that the police shouldn't enforce The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 with the same vigour as any other law.

edited to remove those pesky asterisks that appear out of the blue!

Nuala Mcgovern was shockingly hostile and aggressive with a Sudanese woman yesterday - when the woman was trying to explain her perspective and experience of the Sudanese civil war. Nuala kept saying how " complex" the situation was and in doing so dismissing what the woman was saying.

My instinct was telling me that it was because Nuala was trying to avoid the accusation that westerners were so obsessed with the. supposed "genocide" in Gaza, that they had no time or interest in what was going on elsewhere.

Did anyone else hear that interview?

Selling your body for sex is degrading, there’s no two ways about it. If prostitution were legal the amount of H&S and PPE required would make it unworkable and for good reason.

Amsterdam and the rest of the Netherlands have legalisation. So far only NZ, Belgium (as of 2022) and parts of Australia have decriminalisation (many states have changed from legalisation to decrim in recent years).

"Where there's demand for women to use like live sex dolls"

Something I've noticed about the pro Nordic-Model supporters is the use of manipulative/emotional language. Instead of debating whether the NM would actually improve matters for sex workers, certain "buzz" words and phrases are used. "Violence against women and children", "pimp lobby" comparing sex workers to takeaway pizzas or sex dolls (which IMO sounds a very degrading comparison).

Ash Regan knows what she's doing. Just hearing the words "violence against women" (she makes a point of saying these words a lot) will automatically make some people emotional and AR can use that to manipulate them into supporting her.

I hope when the topic is debated in parliament politicians will be on the watch for what specific words are used and ensure decisions are made on facts and evidence.

Decriminalisation increases prostitution. Look at the human trafficking in Amsterdam. Where there's demand for women to use like live sex dolls, there will be sex trafficking.

Give your head a wobble.

"the ROI has had one client conviction in a decade."

Correction- I meant Northern Ireland.

The Christian Institute supports the Nordic Model. This is why the Nordic Model passed so easily in N.Ire and the ROI- the church over there has a lot more power than it does in Britain. In 2015 (some historical background) MSP Rhoda Grant's Nordic Model private member bill failed, she relied very heavily on people who attended church to support her given the consultation responses. Turns out Rhoda Grant had contacted every church in Scotland and asked them to show a pro Nordic-Model documentary then ask their members to respond to the consultation. The responses to her public consultation were things like "prostitution is against God's law so I support her bill".

"Why do you want prostitution completely decriminalised?"

Why do human rights, health, anti-HIV, anti-trafficking, immigration, sex worker orgs support decrim? You could have a look at my links above, one is an open letter with many signatures.

More info- article from yesterday showing the Scottish Gov has acknowledged Regan's bill "lacks evidence" it will improve matters for sex workers. Research from N. Ire and ROI show the Nordic Model has not reduced demand. Business as usual and as I pointed out the ROI has had one client conviction in a decade. Meanwhile sexworkers are still criminalised for working together which ironically means more sexworkers are being convicted than clients are under the Nordic Model.

Paywall so archive provided:
https://archive.ph/DnlFp