Womens hour on Ash Regan's private members bill in the Scottish Parliament

I didn't intend to mean that was the case in Germany, where prostitutes often work in legal brothels. Immigrant women being tricked and coerced into prostitution was what I was aiming at - this does happen in Germany.

All this seedy violence and exploitation because so many men just can't stay at home and have a nice wank.

Murder is up there with rape as a violent crime against the person, so since we are talking about rape (paid for rape) it's a perfectly good analogy.
You write as tho' selling sexual services was the same as selling kettles. You do know it isn't, I take it?

Why are you and @JennyShaw so keen to keep prostitution going along with pornography, both of which are violence against women? Are you men?

As far as I know there is no Nordic model country that doesn't arrest prostitutes and spends money to help them exit. The interim report on the law in Ireland said that they're not doing it. The Swedish government gave a lot more money to the police but no extra money to social services.

What is the least worst alternative? IMO the Nordic Model is the least worst alternative. Does it work the way we’d like it to? No, of course bloody not.

Why? For all the reasons mentioned. Resources. Political will. Culture. Pornified societies. A depressing and relentless rise in seeing women as constituent body parts here to serve men thanks to the many disparate but connected threads discussed on FWR. Including transgenderism erasing our language and undermining our rights as women, the internet normalising violence against women and girls, the woeful lack of political representation, increasing financial inequality and late capitalism’s drive to commodify absolutely everything.

Yes, the whole system is dishonest. As in our whole system. See above. Would decriminalisation make things better for women? Absolutely not. It’d make it 100 times worse. I do not understand why any woman wants to make it easier for men to exploit and ab/use women. Just why?

Do young girls aspire to grow up to become prostitutes? As long as they get a pension, sick and holiday pay, is that the job you hope your daughters take on as adults? This quote sums it up for me.

“My experiences show that a woman doesn’t choose prostitution. She is choosing survival. Prostitution isn’t a choice. It is the absence of choice. Nobody makes the choice to be poor, low caste, or female. Society and individuals take advantage of this lack of choice.”

https://nordicmodelnow.org/facts-about-prostitution/fact-choice-is-complicated/

Most prostitution does not involve violence against women and even less against children.

Ah. That’s OK then , I suppose.

According to the BBC, one in eight porn videos promoted to first time users features violence against women. Of course, this is not the same as real life, but it’s indicative. Perhaps we can dismiss the one in eight, after all, it’s not “most”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56640178

Is it reassuring to know that “even less” involves children?

And You can say that if a woman is destitute and has no other way of surviving then prostitution could be seen as a form of violence - yes, I think we absolutely can. Dear God.

Most Christians in England would be Anglicans I guess. Most Christians in Ireland would be Roman Catholics or Evangelicals. The Anglicans are losing ground to Evangelicals in England and around the world, especially in Africa.

Anglicans are less likely to think that police action can solve social problems. They are more likely to believe that money well spent on social services, rehab and mental health are the way forward.

In Northern Ireland you have the Evangelical Jim Wells. In the Republic you have people like Sisters Sheila Murphy and Bernadette McNally. Sister Sheila Murphy was was regional leader of the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity. Sister Bernadette McNally was provincial leader of the Good Shepherd Sisters.

Both of them refused to contribute towards the compensation fund for victims of the Magdalene Laundries run by these two orders of nuns. Both of them were board members of Ruhama. Jim Wells and Ruhama campaigned for the Nordic model in their own parts of Ireland. Both of them have provided false statistics to support the Nordic model.

Do you really think that what they have done is based on women's interests?

As I thought. A theologically naive view of the bible and not what most Christians think.

The funny thing is that if I thought the Nordic model really did stop prostitutes from being arrested and really did put significant amounts of money into helping women to exit then I could support it.

I don't really care what happens to the men. The evidence seems to be that they can look after themselves. As long as they are not drunk or stupid they nearly always evade detection.

As far as I know there is no Nordic model country that doesn't arrest prostitutes and spends money to help them exit. The interim report on the law in Ireland said that they're not doing it. The Swedish government gave a lot more money to the police but no extra money to social services.

Lots of people say that the laws against brothel-keeping should be amended so that young women don't get arrested. There are other people who stand in the way of that by saying we don't support it unless men get punished.

The people who brought the Nordic model to Ireland are never going to say we thought it would work at reducing demand but we can see we were wrong so let's get rid of it. Neither are they going to say let's put more money to help them exit. They will say let's give the police more money or powers.

So it will go on forever. Just as much sex being sold but the lives of prostitutes made more difficult. Having to work harder to get their money, more hours and more men. Not to mention increased violence.

I just don't believe that the Nordic model is ever going to do what they say they will do. There is something dishonest about the whole system. They say they will do these things because it sounds good and gets them support. Then when they get the bits they want they're not bothered about the rest of it.

"Can you tell me what the Bible has to say about prostitution and what a government's policies around it should be?"

From several bible passages would I be correct in guessing "God" would want all participants put to death?

See attached image from godisimaginary.com which seems to be down but can be accessed on web archive.

You have a very naive view of what Christians base their policy decisions on. Some have a narrow view of biblical interpretation and authority and some don't. Can you tell me what the Bible has to say about prostitution and what a government's policies around it should be? Many Christians will attempt to find a pragmatic solution to mitigate the problems of prostitution.

And I would still like to know why you want prostitution decriminalised, especially why you want "clients" not to be criminally responsible for their acts. Based on your lack of concern about women's rights under the Equality Act 2010, I'm not sure that your interest in prostitution policy is based on women's interests.

If your account is accurate, they haven't really tried it in Ireland, they've only implemented part of the model, and barely bothered at all with important aspects of it.

Germany often comes up in these discussions as having a problem with trafficking, but no one ever seems to talk about Iceland (which has had the Nordic Model since 2009).

Germany is a relatively large country with a population of 84+ million and a lot of densely populated cities. It is bang in the centre of Europe with nine neighbouring countries. It can be understandable why it would be seen as a sort of "hub" for trafficking given it's size and location.

NM Iceland has under 400,000 people (so small it's not uncommon for a sex worker to answer her phone for a booking and recognise the caller as a male relative) and is in the middle of nowhere. It can't possibly have a trafficking problem right? Nope, it does. It's even a sex destination country.

https://borgenproject.org/human-trafficking-in-iceland/

https://grapevine.is/news/2025/04/16/iceland-once-a-stopover-for-human-trafficking-now-a-destination/

https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/politics_and_society/2017/10/26/organized_crime_and_prostitution_on_the_rise_in_ice/

"There is no question that there has been an “explosion” in prostitution in Iceland over the past 18 months, according to the report. There has been a significant increase in organized prostitution since 2015, and has to some extent followed the rapid growth in the tourism sector. "

Agree.

The way the NM is marketed by Ash Regan and other supporters like MSP Rhoda Grant who made an attempt for it a decade ago is going to be misleading to almost everyone who doesn't follow the debate or have any existing knowledge on it.

"Shifting the Burden of Criminality" or "decrim the sellers criminalise the buyers" of course that is going to make people think that is must be currently illegal for sex workers to sell sex per se. When it isn't.

Claiming the NM will "decriminalise the seller" when the seller is still going to be criminalised for working together (which can also mean the police can break her door down and raid her home under brothel laws) is just outright false. It's the small print of the NM Ash Regan wants to keep quiet. She's relying on most people having little knowledge of this and being easily swayed by vague and misleading claims of what the NM does and doesn't do.

More on Sweden they just passed another law to make it illegal to pay for custom content from online sex workers (OF, cam sites etc), but it's still legal to pay for online sexual content that's already being provided. Would be interesting to see if they can work out how to enforce that, can't the customers and online sex worker simply discuss custom content off-site and make it look like it isn't custom when it's being purchased?

Germany? As far as I know women can't choose to work together in Germany. Not without permission, which may not be forthcoming from the authorities.

In Soho in London they have a system called walk ups. They are not brothels but two women are always in the flat and only ever one man. No prostitute has been murdered in Soho since the 1940s. There was a woman called Camille Gordon murdered in Soho but she wasn't a prostitute, she worked in a clip joint.

So the idea that violence is inherent in it is just an ideological concept from extremists such as Andrea Dworkin. Unconnected to reality and not helping women. She and people like Kathleen Barry and Janice Raymond (who used to be a nun) also believe that when a punter has handed over his money he can do anything he wants to a prostitute.

That is simply not true. If you read Paid For by Rachel Moran, which is recommended by Catharine A MacKinnon, another (radical nutter) she says that for the first two years in prostitution she didn't have penetrative sex. She just used her hands and mouth. All oral sex was with condom.

Then, in 1993 after a change in the law in Ireland that harmed prostitutes, she started doing vaginal penetrative sex. She never did anal sex even once. This vaginal penetrative sex she did sporadically because she preferred to do domination. Also selling cocaine to her clients and taking money from other women for them to use her flat.

@Grammarnut Save our Eyes Holbeck do just this. They're on FB and X and post pictures of the kerb crawlers and their cars.

Most prostitution does not involve violence against women and even less against children.

Drug addicts experience violence, both men and women, whether involved in prostitution or something else such as shoplifting. Most prostitutes are not drug addicts.

Trafficked women experience violence. If by trafficked you mean coerced or deceived, which is what the Palermo Protocol says. British law says something different. Most prostitutes are not trafficked. Many men and women not involved in prostitution have been trafficked.

You can say that if a woman is destitute and has no other way of surviving then prostitution could be seen as a form of violence if they are not temperamentally suited to this way of making money. However, we live in a country which has social security and unemployment is not high. Most prostitutes did not begin because of destitution and they had other choices in the way they make their money.

The way to help drug addicts is through rehab, benefits and housing. The way to help coerced and deceived people is to have social workers who work with them without trying to deport them. The way to help poor people is by making sure they get their benefits without delays and are helped into work.

The situation in Germany is dire but they do not have decriminalisation there. Their system is legalisation. Legalisation seems to work better in the Netherlands, but in New Zealand they have decriminalisation.

In New Zealand if two or three women choose to work together as prostitutes from the same flat or house they will not be arrested. In Germany they probably have to get permission and if not they will be punished.

Your ideal is no prostitution, which we know the Nordic model has not achieved in any of the countries where it has been applied. Far from it.

I look at it differently. I think if prostitution is going to exist, what would be the best form? The best form would be women working together, keeping the profits for themselves and making the rules for themselves.

There is a blog by a prostitute in New Zealand where she said that brothels have been closing down there. She doesn't mean the SOOBs (Small Owner-Operated Brothels), she means the traditional brothel run by a pimp or madam. They still have problems there but the government says that prostitution has not increased. A few have disputed this.

People who believe in decriminalisation don't usually use the word 'empowering'. It is an ambiguous word. However, if a Chinese woman comes to Britain and returns to China with tens of thousand of pounds and sets up her own businesses, then 'empowering' would seem to be a good word for it.

In Sweden they set great store on what they call 'normalisation'. More Swedish people accept the Nordic model. The proportion of people who accept it fluctuates but more people accept that men should be punished for paying for sex. Even though they don't believe it will work at reducing demand. Also, it's not really the Nordic model they seem to want because they think prostitutes should be punished too. So it looks like they want the American model. In any case, want they want has been moulded by the lies their government has told them.

Buying and selling sexual services isn't the same as murdering someone, not a great analogy there.

The analogy was not between the two different sorts of crime, but the deterrent effect of the application of law in two different examples.

It's a buzz phrase when it is said that prostitution is violence against women and children.

Ah OK. So prostitution doesn’t involve violence against women and children then?

Experience in Germany suggests that the idea of two or more women working together for safety does not stop violence. Being prostituted (paid to be raped) is dangerous, violence is inherent in it. Thus, whatever we do we cannot stop that violence. So the thing we can best do is have a model of working that makes it clear what the dangers are and that they are inherently unpoliceable, so we need to get through to men that buying sex is something only a creep would want to do.
I'd put photos of men found around brothels or kerb crawling on Facebook, personally. Sadly, that's probably illegal unlike buying a woman to allow you to do anything you want with her body and the holes in it.

The point of the Nordic model is to make buying sex not normal, whereas the sex industry wants buying sex to be normal. This attitude is behind constant suggestions that selling sex is empowering for women - a lie many are happy to buy into. Decriminalizing prostitution (paid for rape) increases the number of prostitutes and brothels far more. You should look at Germany or New Zealand to see that the Nordic model is the least worst way of regulating a situation that most countries should be ashamed exists in their countries. The ideal is no prostituted women. Which means helping women out of prostitution - where is the evidence that decriminalization of prostituting women reduces prostitution - and the violence with which it is associated?

It's a buzz phrase when it is said that prostitution is violence against women and children. That is said quite often. It's especially annoying when it looks as if violence against prostitutes increased in Ireland after the 2017 law and also the 1993 law.

The most irritating is "Shifting the Burden of Criminality". They think that instead of sex workers getting arrested it should be their clients. Instead of women being prosecuted it will be men.

It is not illegal for a woman to be a sex worker in Britain. That was true of Ireland and Sweden too. It is illegal for two women to work together for safety. There are also laws to do with soliciting and loitering.

In Ireland and Sweden women continued to be arrested for working together. In fact, in Ireland they doubled the penalties for 'brothel-keeping', which includes imprisonment. In Sweden no man was imprisoned for paying for sex, as far as I can tell. Just fines, although hardly any man has been prosecuted in Ireland.

I noticed that Ash Regan on Woman's Hour didn't say anything about women working together and brothel-keeping. She said that she wants to decriminalise the women but she doesn't seem to recognize that this is the main way that sex workers get arrested.

certain "buzz" words and phrases are used. "Violence against women and children"

That’s certainly the first time I’ve seen that particular expression termed a “buzz phrase”. Goodness me.