Behind the ruling: how ‘Sex Matters’ is shaping UK policy on trans rights

https://amzn.eu/d/bigf8FE

And apparently it's 99p on Kindle at the moment!

If Bee could get past the suffragette colours of the cover, Bee could read 'women won't wheesht' which details the lobbying of the Scottish government and the hounding and harassment of the women who stood up to it/ called attention to it.

I would be interested in Bee's views on the issues raised therein.

If they can find the time, of course.

I can’t give this enough hearts.

Bee, can I ask what it is you don't like about the gents toilets?

They have cubicles AND urinals right? Sinks, and paper towels/a drier?

So essentially they are the ultimate mixed sex toilet anyway?

Anyone got a handy reference to give Bee about the behind-closed-doors chumming and lobbying by Press for Change and others that preceded the GRA, or the groups advising the Scottish government prior to the GRR fiasco?

I'm sure Bee will be utterly horrified to discover that the very same tactics Bee is concerned about from the people who lobby for sex based rights and proections have also been used by the very people Bee thought were on the side of good, and I look forward to Bee's fullsome condemnation of the same.

The far right Christian angle always makes me laugh as a left leaning liberal Wiccan they would probably like to tie me to a stake and burn me.

Have you considered reading the article? It's great that finally we're seeing some scrutiny of anti-trans activism.

Heck this right wing fundamental religious alignment has been written about 100s of times already, it's nothing new.

We're all still waiting for our religious fundamental funding to be paid?

Can you please write about that, they are bad payers and that is not very Christian at all.

See i suspect by trans ideology I'm not a woman however I am female. One of the problems with trans ideology is that I'm not allowed to not be a woman unless I declare I'm something else. I don't identify as a woman, I'm not feminine, I don't wear make up or dresses so I'm definitely not a cis woman. That hurts transwomen because they can't ever be included in my definition because the only thing that makes me a woman is my female biology. The only way to live like a woman is through female biology.

I need my female biology to be recognized to have any chance at getting the rights that I need due to that female biology.

I don't care if trans people gets special spaces for themselves, the handmaidens can join them in those spaces but hands off my female spaces, they are not yours to just demand.

Dream on . Women’s Rights are Human Right as the song goes. They’re for us women, not men.

The 'forced sterilisation' aspect is interesting. As pointed out, it is the TRAs who are arguing for the sterilisation of trans identified people through cross-sex hormones and surgery, which is rather coyly called 'trans affirming healthcare'. Doctors are actually removing gonads and are literally sterilising trans identifying people.

So, somehow, the sex realists who are saying, hang on, something is wrong here. That unnecessary castration, hysterectomy, etc. shouldn't be dolled out to vulnerable people with no safeguarding, are the ones who are magically carrying out this 'forced sterilisation'?

It's bloody upside-down Humpty-Dumpty world again.

Or, proven liars, once again lie about stuff.

Would you like to comment on this observation @BeeSouriante ?

😂😂😂

a six page post is hardly difficult to keep up with. I take it you don’t identify as a multi-tasker?

Trolling? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 DARVO is strong with this one.

Women's rights does not equal anti trans activism.

Not everything is about you.

Most things are not about you.

Women are allowed to exist and have sex based rights which do not include you, no matter how sad that makes you.

Please deal.

oh hi Bee! Thank you for engaging!

Have you considered reading the post you replied to? Notably this paragraph:

(How do I know if a poster is male or female? Because the TRA-side women at some point usually say "I'm a cis woman and I don't feel like you do", mention a lovely friend, then disappear in a cloud of sadness and damp hankies, and the men usually say "I'm a trans woman and I'm here to tell you why you are wrong".)

I'm not saying I know you are male because of how you post, I'm saying it's an interesting pattern in posters who I know are male 😂

Not sure what you mean about "Feminist" - do you think it's somehow UnFeminist to notice that men and women are socialised and treated differently and this leads to different patterns of behaviour, often to the advantage of men and the detriment of women? Because I think that's one of the crucial insights of Feminism and why I am so gender critical. Gender hurt us all, but it hurts women especially by pushing us into playing the exact roles that disadvantage us.

Also, now we are talking: what do you feel about the eliminationism of Female People by a political and social movement that seeks openly and proudly to remove our rights, invalidate our voices and delegitimise our moral right to control which sex is allowed to touch us?

Because Female people exist.

And whatever your personal definition of a "woman" might be, as a trans woman the group of female people does not include you and this remains true whatever you may change in language or in law.

So all I want to understand is why is it so important to you that a group of people who you don't even belong to, who have nothing to do your definition of "woman", who by number alone have historically been marginalised, exploited and abused more consistently than any other group of humans, whose problems are different to the problems you may or may not face, be denied legal rights, social acceptance and even our own name and language with which to speak of our own experiences?

Why is it so important to you to take away the tools we need to fight our historic and onoing marginalisation, abuse and oppression, things that are nothing to do with you or womanhood as you experience it but are centred in our female bodies and how society treats us because of them?

Because honestly, I'd really love to know.

If you found this article compelling, it says all people really need to know about you. You have nothing to discuss you just want to use fallacy to support weak arguments.

It is great though, as I said. It shows how there is no evidenced arguments out there to support your points.

anyone expecting a sensible reply will be disappointed

I admire those with the patience to engage and post sensible reasoned arguments. I'm 100% certain you won't see an equivalent engagement from the OP

I see. You start threads and can’t be arsed to reply.

Same old same old.

The only thing i can think of is the sterilisation - which TRAs seem to be in great support for in the form of puberty blockers and medical transition

No, there doesn’t.

Now I’ve read the Wikipedia page I’m still no wiser how not letting men into women’s toilets is “eliminationist”.

there are (allegedly) five forms of “eliminationism”:

1. Transformation: deleting/changing the cultural identities of people.
2. Repression: systematically limiting the power of the target group through political disenfranchisement
3. Expulsion: removing the undesired group through relocation
4. Contraception, forced sterilization etc
5. Extermination: mass murder or genocide

I don’t see how any of these apply even remotely. Trans people have a strong culture, with which nobody is interfering, but in any case want to be invisible in society (a contradiction I already asked about); they have the same voting rights as every other individual, so 2 doesn’t apply. Nobody is expelling anyone that I can see, the only people sterilizing trans people are they themselves through hormone treatment (and in any case trans is not a heritable condition, so if the plan is to eliminate trans people by sterilizing them it’s not going to work) and nobody is being murdered: if anything the rate of murder of trans people is less than the general population (as long as you’re not a South American sex worker).

Maybe a Wikipedian needs to add a sixth category of eliminationism about not being able to crash the opposite sex bathroom. (I’m sure there’s a pun on “elimination”to be had but I’m not clever enough to find it).

So I’ve read the Wikipedia page, as suggested, and I’m even more confused. How is knowing that a man is not a woman “eliminationist”?

I think it’s darker than that.

TRAs generally see themselves as part of the “progressive left”. And I reckon they have the basic awareness that “literal genocide” doesn’t sound so good when the progressive left is focused on Israel/Palestine. High chance of someone turning around and noticing that there seems to be a measurable difference between genocides.

Hence the switch to “eliminationism”. Less chance of someone on a protest twigging that the U.K. Supreme Court doesn’t, so far, actually seem to have bombed the limbs off any trans people, so it’s pretty offensive to draw the comparison.

I agree, and I think it's really important to be able to spot the patterns, e.g. the shifts from 'born in the wrong body' to 'congruence' and from 'TWAW' to ..something slippier, but parallelly 'I'm not a robot I'm biological I say I am a woman therefore I am literally a biological women'...

Also appropriation of common GC phrases like 'cognitive dissonance' - a form of DARVO [deny, attack, reverse victim and offender], but a very childish one, to me it always sounds like an overtired 5 year old saying 'No it's YOUR bedtime YOU put your pyjamas on!'. 'No YOU'RE cognitively dissonant!'

I've spotted one or two reversals like that but 'cognitive dissonance' is the only one I can think of now - any more, so we can start keeping track of them?

I could say 'a new bingo card' but it's a serious subject .. but yeah a new 'reversal' bingo card, if you like...

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, so not sure if someone else has made the point already.....

@BeeSouriante "to relegate trans people to their sex at birth" No one is relegating anyone. You're either male or female. Maybe we could all join forces together and fight stereotypes such as "females belong in the home" and "only males can fix cars".

Also it's not "sex at birth". It's just sex. Determined in the womb. Unchangeable. Sorry.

If you or your trans identifying friends are looking for someone to blame, I'm afraid there isn't anyone. It's nature.