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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is anti-trans so important?

509 replies

Elizabethbd · 24/06/2025 11:48

So, I will preface this with saying that I’m not in the UK, and my country does not yet have the kind of anti-trans debate as there is in the English speaking world.

So, I have a hard time understanding why this is such an important question to many women.

Surely there are women’s issues that affect a larger part of society.

I’m thinking rape and violence towards women, homelesness, sex trafficking and honour killings. Why are these issues not more important and worthy of attention, as they affect so many more women than those who come into contact with trans women (or men)?

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FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:44

LivTwist · 25/06/2025 00:34

So rude. Other people can state their opinion without being told they don't know what they're talking about. Instead why not show some stats that show most trans women do nothing, don't take hormones or do anything else medically? That might show you know what you're talking about

So you ignore that poster calling people ignorant, but pounce on me when I return it back? That's disingenuous.

And I did post stats already further up in the thread.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:43

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 20:19

Uh.... Because men are 50% of the population and commit 98% of the sexual crimes therefore they are the biggest threat to me.

Transwomen are men. And are a far greater threat than other men because they hide in plain sight.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:41

BeeSouriante · 24/06/2025 20:11

I mean, you're on one of the better-known anti-trans forums - you only have to glance to see how much interest in actual issues that affect women and girls. Hell, the huge vote and win to decriminalise abortion wasn't even mentioned on here until hours afterwards..and the 'feminism chat' is pretty dead.

Fact is that successive governments and the right wing media are very happy with trans moral panic as they can pretend that they're actually helping women, whilst the same issues over rape/DV convictions, over hormonal care, over childcare, child sexualisation etc etc remain..or in some cases have gotten worse.

It's honestly depressing and without our government having a pikachu moment, it's only going to get worse.

You're another one that is too cowardly to return to their own thread they make.

You represent the worst of misogyny. Attempting to tell women, and rape survivors like me, what our priorities should be. Scolding us for not wanting males to take our spaces, our sports, our facilities. Because you think a male in a dress is suddenly no threat. Stranger Danger exists because of people with your mindset. Thankfully, you're losing the war.

Boiledbeetle · 25/06/2025 00:40

LivTwist · 25/06/2025 00:34

So rude. Other people can state their opinion without being told they don't know what they're talking about. Instead why not show some stats that show most trans women do nothing, don't take hormones or do anything else medically? That might show you know what you're talking about

Ha!

The poster Feisty is responding to had just called me ignorant and stupid. If she didn't want calling out in return maybe she should have chosen her words more carefully to begin with!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/06/2025 00:40

And aside from all the frothing about "bathrooms" and "they just want to pee"...

Female people exist. We aren't a bloodless sexless concept for expressing your inner self, we are real, embodied humans. We are half of humanity. And our bodies have consequences. They have physical consequences in where we are, overall, stronger and where we are, overall, weaker than men, and they have social consequences. Oh god, how they have social consequences. People like us are infantilised, patronised, fetishised, marginalised, exploited, abused, riciculed and dismissed because of our bodies and because of the higher burden of childcare and above all because of what society encodes on top of those things. Not all of us all of the time, but all of us some of the time and that fucking matters.

And so, after decades, centuries, of writing, and explaining, and researching, and explaining, and protesting, and explaining, and voting, and explaining, and apealling, and explaining, we got to the point where society broadly accepted we had, by and large, not been treated fairly and often still were not, and we had women-only spaces that sometimes are there to keep us safe or stop men imposing their sexual agression and entitlement on our bodies but often just give us space to remember who we are when we are not constantly having to fight encroaching, overtalking, overbearing men just to be seen and heard, and to talk to each other and recognise our own experiences in other women without being mediated and devalued and explained away by men.

And we had the understanding that if sometimes we need to be touched for care, or treatment, or security, we might prefer those hands to be another woman's because our relationship with our bodies and the touch of men is complicated by the knowledge of how men fetishise and fantasise about our bodies, and if sometimes we need to be supported or counseled and make ourselves vulnerable, we might prefer that to be with women only because our experiences with men and their ability to dominate us through physical, social or economic power can prevent us feeling safe with even the nicest of them.

And we had women only opportunities for us to reach our potential, whether in sports where even the best of us would otherwise by overshadowed by the default additional strength and power of men, or in culture, education and professions where training and networks focussed on women allowed us to support and mentor each other and escape the unconscious biases that obscure our abilities.

And these things fucking matter, and they are important and needed not because we feel like women on the inside but because being female bodied in this world has consequences

So it's not ok to decide some men are somehow, in some effable way, inside their male bodies just like us and have the same needs for these things and therefore a right to have them. Because whatever a trans woman feels about himself in his own head, out here in our reality, to the women in the spaces and opportunities he wants to impose himself into, when he plays sports his body is still a man's body , when he looks at us it's still a mans eyes looking, when he touches us it's still a man's hands touching us, when he talks over us and reshapes our experiences in a way that he prefers them to be, it's just a man doing the same thing men have done to us all our lives.

And I don't understand why these men, these "trans women", are so very important that we are supposed to throw away all this, all these things that are there for female people to deal with the consequences of being female, which is something trans women simply are not and can never be, challanges they simply do not have, for no other reason than because trans women apparently cannot accept that female people exist and have embodied and sex based needs that are nothing to do with the trans woman's personal experience of unbodied sexless "womanhood".

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:36

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 20:03

Do you understand statistics? There is no statistic on what percentage of trans women are convicted of sexual crime.
Your point only makes sense if you take all 3 from a prison.
Considering Cis men commit 98% of sexual crime, cis women 2% do even if the entire population of trans people were sexual convicts they still only make up 0.3% of people so it's going to be significantly lower than men or women.

Do you understand statistics? Do you understand what per capita means?

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:34

deadpantrashcan · 24/06/2025 19:34

What? Ok, so we’ve established that Eddie is a crossdresser? Forgive me, I thought we were talking about trans folk, the ones who have removed their penis etc. I didn’t realise folk that did that acted as a different sex for only half the day.

Newsflash, @deadpantrashcan , almost none of them remove their penis.

That's the point.

I guess you didn't know that though... ?

LivTwist · 25/06/2025 00:34

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:22

What is truly ignorant is you not having heard of self-ID. Most transwomen do not have any surgery or do anything. The most they do, they absolute most - is dress like a woman.

And even if they did, that trumps the rights of RAPE SURVIVORS like me, @deadpantrashcan , to female only safe single sex spaces? Because their feels are more important than my needs and rights and the needs and rights of the oppressed sex? Such an ignorant and honestly stupid myopic and misogynistic outlook.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

So rude. Other people can state their opinion without being told they don't know what they're talking about. Instead why not show some stats that show most trans women do nothing, don't take hormones or do anything else medically? That might show you know what you're talking about

JFDIYOLO · 25/06/2025 00:33

All the things you mention have one thing in common - they are all done in full knowledge of what women are.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:32

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 19:43

Thats not true the statistic is that trans women that are already INCARCERATED are more likely to have been convicted of a sexual crime than straight men. But statistically you are more likely to meet a woman who has been convicted of a sexual crime in the bathroom since trans people only make up 0.3% of the population.

Yes, transwomen are more likely to be convicted of a sexual crime. Our point exactly.

And what does 'straight' have to do with this? We are not talking about sexual preference here. This isn't about straight vs gay. It's about a subset of male (transwomen) vs other males.

Enough4me · 25/06/2025 00:28

Elizabethbd · 24/06/2025 13:19

Again, thank you to all posters. My intention was to gain information, not to engage in a debate. I won’t engage in this debate further, primarily because I don’t have an opinion to defend.

You dont have an opinion but started a thread as though you thought it wasn't an important issue?

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:27

JsmeLegie · 24/06/2025 19:35

Being feminist and being in support of - or an ally to - the rights of trans-women are not mutually exclusive, despite the confusion of some people.

Being an ally to males - regardless of what they wear, is not, never has, and never will be part of feminism.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:25

deadpantrashcan · 24/06/2025 19:30

In SOME cases. But don’t worry, no one said it was your bloody fault.

Some is some too many.

LivTwist · 25/06/2025 00:24

You're sounding a bit aggressive @FeistyCat @Eolhc1990 has already said several times that she now has changed her views

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:23

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 19:27

Its not that i dont support them i just don't agree with them that trans women are a threat....and I don't really understand how you expect to police it given the fact that many trans women and cis women (me included) look very masculine. Like how are you going to know? The whole bathroom debate is just weird.

Yet, as I posted, transwomen are a BIGGER THREAT than other males. They are far more dangerous.

You seem to think a male's threat hinges on what they wear.

And we policed female only spaces for DECADES AND DECADES until recently. How do you think we did it all this time??

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:22

deadpantrashcan · 24/06/2025 19:26

This is such an ignorant and honestly stupid outlook. So, because of “John,” pretending to be trans, we diminish the rights of all genuine transwomen? Transwomen who have spent years becoming who they want to be? Because people like you think the whole thing occurs over the course of two days and is just a case of buying a dress, a wig, and shaving a moustache? Why is it ok to make such generalised assumptions about one group of people, and not another?

Edited

What is truly ignorant is you not having heard of self-ID. Most transwomen do not have any surgery or do anything. The most they do, they absolute most - is dress like a woman.

And even if they did, that trumps the rights of RAPE SURVIVORS like me, @deadpantrashcan , to female only safe single sex spaces? Because their feels are more important than my needs and rights and the needs and rights of the oppressed sex? Such an ignorant and honestly stupid myopic and misogynistic outlook.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

LivTwist · 25/06/2025 00:17

Helleofabore · 24/06/2025 23:10

Then they need to update all the mantras and policies that they have influenced and all the guidelines.

And to re-educate everyone.

and to exclude groups of people from the Trans umbrella it seems. Do you think that people cannot be genderfluid ?

Edited

I don't really understand what people mean when they say they are gender fluid tbh. I don't think you can constantly change your gender identity

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:15

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 18:39

Regardless of what you believe their gender to be they are a tiny minority of people and I certaibly don't fear them any more than I would a woman.
For sure I fear straight men so i wouldnt like a gender neutral public toilet, but if a trans person identifying as a woman wanted to use the female bathrooms it's no skin off my nose.

And, you don't have the right to give my consent away to female only safe single sex spaces away from males in a dress. You really think what a male wears makes them less dangerous? Have you never engaged critical thinking?

Why is anti-trans so important?
FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:13

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 18:39

Regardless of what you believe their gender to be they are a tiny minority of people and I certaibly don't fear them any more than I would a woman.
For sure I fear straight men so i wouldnt like a gender neutral public toilet, but if a trans person identifying as a woman wanted to use the female bathrooms it's no skin off my nose.

A subset of MALES are not a 'tiny minority'. And they are no less of a threat to us because they wear a dress. As a RAPE SURVIVOR, I fear a male REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE WEARS. Understood?

Why is anti-trans so important?
FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:11

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 18:34

Trans women are trans women

With penis, testicles, prostate, height, strength, male conditioning. And no lived experience of being a member of the vulnerable oppressed sex class.

Next you'll tell us Rachel Dolezal is really an African American.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:10

minnienono · 24/06/2025 18:32

It’s not @Elizabethbd in real life. Online forums are anonymous so people express more extreme views plus some people may be deliberately provocative.

All the issues you mentioned are very important whereas whether a natal man who has transitioned is in a toilet is of not important to most women day to day for two reasons, one is that they are no threat and two is it’s very very rare, I’ve encountered it twice and I live in liberal Bristol.

there are issues one being single sex spaces for vulnerable women being protected but it’s not on the forefront of our thoughts outside of Mumsnet

Less than 8% of males remove their penis and testicles, @minnienono . And even if they do, they are still a threat height and strength wise. A de-nutted male dog is still a male dog. And how can we tell which are the safe 'transitioned' ones, @minnienono ? How do you suggest we find out? Have you got any answers for that? Besides, it's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze. Not just safety.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:07

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 18:31

Trans women are a tiny minority not men.
I don't look like a man but I look like I could be a trans woman I'm almost 6ft always been big build I wear my hair long but PCOS and my dad's large nose mean I do have masculine features. I do get odd looks in bathrooms since I appear large and imposing, doesn't really bother me though but I could see how it could impact others.

Transwomen are MEN. Male. Males are 50% of the population. You don't get to take a selection of males, re-badge them as 'trans', and say they are no longer men and no longer have penis and testicles. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

FeistyCat · 25/06/2025 00:04

Eolhc1990 · 24/06/2025 18:05

Do you have a source for this? I can't find it. Regardless I mean African American people have a higher incarceration rate in America but its not down to them all being bad eggs, its often true that persecuted and vulnerable groups of people on the margins end up incarcerated

I posted it for you. Males in a dress are not any more vulnerable than any other male.

InfoSecInTheCity · 24/06/2025 23:57

Trans Women are men, if you allow an exception for any man to gain access to female only services and provisions then you allow an exception for all men.

The ‘do you really think a man would go to the trouble of pretending to be a Trans Woman……’ argument is ludicrous. We know, it is proven we have implemented whole elaborate safeguarding checks around the fact that men have throughout history gone to elaborate lengths to gain access to vulnerable women and children - become priests, teachers, nurses, doctors, scouts leaders etc. Now they don’t even need to shave or wear a dress, they just need to say ‘I identify as a woman’.

Waitwhat23 · 24/06/2025 23:56

There's usually a 'frothing' thrown in too.

If they're getting particularly cross, there's sometimes a few crude references to women's reproductive parts.