Why is anti-trans so important?

I think deadpantrashcan has a narrow view of 'trans', that is outdated.

The question of 'pretending to be trans' is completely irrelevant. There is no way to know what is going on in somebody's head or to decide whether somebody is 'genuine'. In the last census, a third of trans people who declared a gender described themselves as neither male nor female, so by definition aren't trying to pass as the opposite sex.

You can't accommodate trans people with services that ask people to choose one of two genders, or by gate keeping who can use a gendered sevice.

All you have is the choice of single sex and mixed sex services.

It's not even primarily about overt violence, it is more about the instinctive need for privacy and dignity that accompanies sex. Males, no matter how they present, or whether they are heterosexual or homosexual will always be 'other' .

In spite of all the paltitudes about not 'othering' people.....the fact is there are differences between people; differences between groupings of people; and differnces between cultures. 'Difference' and therefore a degree of 'otherness' will always be with us.

Single sex spaces, categories and services exist because of the recognition of this, at the level of biological sex.

@deadpantrashcan

Genuine question: do you think the main thing that makes men and women different is that we simply think differently?

It's certainly disappointing that a rape survivor couldn't understand why some survivors would be triggered by even just a male voice. Why, if they called a 'woman-only' survivors helpline they may be distressed that the voice on the other end was undeniably male, because said hotline had previously declared that 'transwomen are women'. Actually it's disappointing that so many people struggle to understand how damaging something like that can be to victims, regardless of their personal history.

Sorry that my rape experience has disappointed you.

we all know that you know that's not what she said

Seriously look at your own posts

"This is such an ignorant and honestly stupid outlook. So, because of “John,” pretending to be trans, we diminish the rights of all genuine transwomen? Transwomen who have spent years becoming who they want to be? Because people like you think the whole thing occurs over the course of two days and is just a case of buying a dress, a wig, and shaving a moustache? Why is it ok to make such generalised assumptions about one group of people, and not another?"

In just one post

You insulted me, in response to a post where I wasn't insulting any posters

then

You assumed John was pretending to be trans,

You assumed I thought someone being trans just happened overnight.

You assumed that genuine trans people take years transitioning.

You assumed transwomen need to buy wigs and dresses in order to be a transwoman

You assumed an awful lot in one post.

It's not about education, it's about empathy.

It's great that you were helped by a trans woman.

But some other women were raped by trans women.

And some other women were raped by a man and then told they couldn't have any counselling unless they accepted trans women being part of that counselling.

Ok, will stop calling people ignorant 🙏

Haven’t had a quality flounce in a while. I’m giving this one 5/10. The petulance and ‘one rule for me, another for the’ is pretty good but the phrasing lacks originality

Sorry that my rape experience has disappointed you. I was actually helped by a trans woman at the time. So forgive me if we have different perspectives. But again, sorry to have disappointed you and that my rape did not educate me enough.

I’m fine with being insulted. I’m just asking for there to be less assumptions. We’re all going to continue to disagree and continue insulting each other so it’s futile. All the best.

You were the one who started with the insults.

"deadpantrashcan · Yesterday 19:26
This is such an ignorant and honestly stupid outlook."

You don't like getting called ignorant? Then maybe don't insult other posters first.

That makes it all the more disappointing that you don't support the rights of other women to say no to male people who want to disrespect their boundaries.

Many of us here are rape survivors. Stop calling people ignorant when you don’t seem to understand what the trans movement actually is.

Did you have to put that in capitals? If so, I’m not too proud to let you know that I’m a RAPE SURVIVOR as well. I was drugged and raped aged 28, if that makes you any happier to hear. So let’s not go down the ignorant route anymore.

In fairness, she was replying to your post where you appeared not to know that.

Absolutely get lost with your “newsflash.” Do not assume what I do and do not know.

If you want to hear voices of the vulnerable and marginalised try Paddy O'Gorman's podcast. The first episode of season 2 gave women outside Limerick prison an opportunity to talk about how the transgender prisoners affected them. He returned to the issue in later podcasts, but I think listening to his whole output, including stuff with nothing to do with gender issues, would be educational for some young people living in a privileged and protected bubble.

http://paddyspodcast.ie/

It is irrelevant how many male people have surgeries removing their penis and testicles. it really is.

Can you explain the exact difference between a male person who loses their penis and testicles due to injury or disease and one who has them removed due to elective surgery to suit their philosophical belief? The exact differences?

Should one be allowed into the female single sex space in your opinion ? Both? Or neither? How can we tell which male person no longer has a penis and testes and which ones do?

Good to see posters like @Eolhc1990 change their mind when they suddenly see the issue.

And in terms of statistics, you don't have to be a statistician to appreciate that a man, any man, who wants access to unconsenting women will constitute a threat.

As pp have said, good men stay out so bad men stand out.

As there isn’t any definition of presenting as a man or a woman, and many trans people don’t identify as either, it’s not really a question of presentation. Gender is a completely subjective concept, so the only practical options are single sex or mixed sex.

But it’s not about statistically who you are most likely to encounter, it’s about statistically how much of a potential threat a person is when you encounter them. Men who identify as women are as much of a threat to women as men who do not identify as women. We know that from new studies into their rates of criminality and our own prison statistics (which actually show that men who identify as women have a higher proclivity for sexual crimes than a man who doesn’t).

This boils down to - some people think that it’s OK to deny women provision of female only services if the males who are granted access have specific characteristics. When challenged about this, the defence is usually based on how very special and rare the characteristic is.

This argument seems to be gradually dying in the same way ‘TWAW’ died. The more common claim now is that there is no such thing as ‘biologically female’ and so there must not be, or cannot be, a female category based on biology.

Grifters gonna grift!!

It is ‘interesting’ that women wanting female only provision of intimate care, the eradication of limiting stereotypes, and holistic healthcare for childhood distress is being understood as being motivated by feelings about males.

In the case of this board, I can see why, at first glance, someone might think the motivation for posting is trans related. However, all you need to do is read a few posts on any thread, to see that women’s rights and needs are at the centre of what is written. If gender ideology did not encroach on women’s rights or child development, I imagine there would be very few posts about trans people.

It is hard to see how anything other than misogyny underpins this framing. Women should not be expected to accommodate/include any males in their women’s rights advocacy, regardless of how minoratised they are. Any expectation to do so is blatantly positioning women as secondary to men with trans identities.

With respect, what difference does it make?

A trans person is just someone who, for reasons best known to themselves, says they are the opposite sex to the one they actually are. We're not mind readers. We don't know who is saying it because they really believe it and who is saying it for explicitly nefarious purposes, and this is actually another argument in favour of trusting no one who says they are trans rather than trusting everyone who says they are trans. Either way, no male person belongs in women's spaces and I am glad the Supreme Court has been clear about this.

It doesn't matter how sad it makes them not to be included in women's rape crisis groups or communal showers. That's not the relevant consideration. The relevant consideration is whether those spaces would still function correctly as single sex spaces with trans women in them. And the answer is no.