Why is anti-trans so important?

Exactly.

@LivTwist These men were claiming to be women, and so treated as "women", way before they were arrested and charged.

So if they were not "really" trans women, then something has gone badly wrong with trans rights because they were certainly being treated as if they were.

So what was not in place that should have been to recognise they were fakes, deny their claim of "womanhood" and prevent their access to women's bodies, women-only spaces and women-only services? In all the rush to protect and validate any man who might just, maybe be really and truly this thing called trans, where were the protections for women against the men who were not?

Fine have it your way, this is a waste of time

Or do you understand the point we are all making?

That it is you who is gatekeeping who is and isn’t genuine. And you have no definition to describe this category of human, yet you insist there are ‘genuine’ versions of this category of humans.

As I just said I give up with asking. I think people know what I mean but want to avoid answering

Ugh I give up trying to ask a question

What is the definition of a ‘genuine transwoman’? If there is not definition, how can statistics be collated to fit this definition?

None of them should be in women's prisons
That's not the point I'm asking about

There's no such thing as pretending to be a trans woman, because being a trans woman doesn't mean anything other than being male and saying you are a woman.

Those are literally the only criteria, so Karen White and Isla Bryson are just as much trans women as Debbie Hayton and Nadia from Bih Brother are.

There's no such thing as pretending to be a male person who says they are a woman. If you're a male person and you're saying you're a woman, you fulfil the only criteria there are.

The distinction you make either doesn’t or can’t exist in law.

The PC of gender reassignment is deliberately vague about classification.

The ECHR has ruled that a GRC can’t be dependent on treatment that would cause sterilisation.

If there ever was an idea that transition could be objectively defined in law, that ship has sailed.

I don't care whether a man decides he is a woman at the moment of his arrest or he has been saying he is a woman for the last 30 years.

His crimes are not our crimes and should never be recorded as having been committed by a woman.

I also think that if you are convicted of a sexual offence and you already have a gender recognition certificate saying you are a woman, it should be revoked, and you should never be allowed to apply for one in the future.

There been many posters of late, not just on this thread, who insist that transwomen are no danger to women. When you mention people like Isla Bryson, Karen White and Barbie Kardassian we're told well they're just pretending to be trans but it doesn't seem to click with some posters that these men are treated in the same way as the "real transwomen "

We have the stats that the ministry of justice collect. It is you who are gate keeping who is and isn’t transgender though. Have you been able to explain what a ‘genuine’ transwoman is ? Have I missed that definition?

Please if you haven’t define who is a genuine transwoman is, please can you provide this?

Well, precisely.
A bit of an own goal, perhaps?

If you don't have to go through a process of diagnosis to be accepted as trans, anyone can claim to be so.

Isla Bryson springs to mind, leaping nimbly up complete with pink leggings and spotty umbrella...

Even if some men are cynically pretending to be trans when caught what difference does it make when these pretending men are being placed in womens prisons.

No I mean men who cynically suddenly decide they are trans when caught for an offence. I think it's clear what I mean and how it affects the stated crime stats of trans women. Posters say it doesn't matter but it does if people iare saying that trans women have a higher incidence of sexual crimes than other men. I'd like to be clearer about what could called ' genuine' trans womens sexual crimes. But I can guess this question is going to be deliberately misunderstood or I'll be told it's irrelevant. I will see if I can find any information myself, just thought someone might have the stats

I think sometimes people do say bathroom instead of toilet as they think the term more polite. I find myself doing it sometimes actually. I’m in Ireland.

Only because you seem to believe there are people who have a ‘real’ philosophical belief doesn’t reflect material reality versus people who have a ‘fake’ philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect material reality. Have I got that right?

Exactly this.

Maybe this will help

https://fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

I'm no longer sure which thread full of (faux?)-naive questioners is which, but somewhere there was a request for statistics on how many transwomen have had surgery and how many have had hormone treatment.

The problem is related to the fact that since records started listing gender instead of sex it is impossible to gather facts on women or men, their rights, their issues.

Unless people getting a GRC (already a minority) have to disclose their medical history (truthfully) there is no way of answering that question. All we can go on is their own words. Which mostly say transwomen are women and do not need any body modification, no debate, be kind. People in the criminal system mostly have not had any physical modifications, either surgical or chemical. I fear that women may be more inclined to go down the medical route than men, doing lifelong irreversible damage to themselves in the process.

I think the important question is why is pro-trans such a huge issue? 🤔

I second that, respectfully.
It's awful that deadpantrashcan was raped, and usually that would have been greeted with .

Many of us on here are survivors of rape or sexual abuse, it's so well known that it's sort of 'backgrounded' as taken.
deadpantrashcan was not to know that.

Not saying that deadpantrashcan didn't dish out a bit of aggro herself, but I think FlirtsWithRhinos was right to ask us to stop and think about our reactions.

I have a lot of respect for you Datun and I appreciate the "bollocks" was aimed at a specific misreading of a comment, but in a subthread about how someone may or may not feel about being raped I think that's harsher than it needed to be (also also likely to be seized on out of context and used against you).

I think what a load of bollocks is probably the most appropriate

Indeed.

It's difficult to know how to respond to something so aberrant.