Why is anti-trans so important?

I don’t think there is anyone here who wishes harm to transpeople - we just see equality as being about more than trans issues and, this being a feminism forum, we’re primarily focused on ensuring fair treatment for women. Please stay and join the discussion, just don’t assume posters are coming from an anti-trans perspective if they are centring women rather than transpeople.

How many men does that 16% actually amount to and how many trans women overall? And how many of the trans women just decided to become trans after being caught because they are definitely a fair few so that gives a false reading of the amount of 'genuune' trans women

Female people with PCOS don’t look like male people. The way many people correctly sex a male or female person is not what they present like. It is so much more than that.

It is the very many differences that are derived from MALE levels of testosterone which is far higher than female levels of testosterone. I am happy to find the nmol amounts but iirc female people don’t overlap with masculinised male people. There seems to be a great deal of misinformation on this thread already. Wrongly dismissed prison statistics, PCOS, sexual orientation assumptions.

No. Male people have sketal differences that are markedly different to female people. These cannot be changed with any hormones or surgery. Male people move and walk very differently to female people. Even arm proportions and leverage points are different. And skull structural differences that are easily picked. No woman with PCOS takes on a male skull structure or skeleton.

Male power advantages do not diminish with suppression of testosterone either. So any male in a female space will have power advantage over those female people.

It doesn’t matter at all what a male person ‘presents’ like. It truly doesn’t. No male people in female single sex spaces.

Stick around - please.

This is a place where a real debate can be had. And many of the regular posters on this board are very knowledgeable and have thought about the issues deeply. You can learn a lot by reading and thinking about what people are saying, It may or may not change your mind (Katie Dolatowski is not an isolated case), but it will definitely help you hone your arguments, and be better informed,

Ok I'm I'm over my head here, you make very good points. I suppose I just worried about genuine trans women just trying to live their lifes and about how this will affect them. But I can accept that there is more of a risk to women and girls than I realised by not having female only spaces.

I honestly think we should pin this and the 'Break It Down for Me' thread at the top of this board. It would be so helpful -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Do you understand that to some male people the act of knowingly transgressing boundaries and being in a space for female people where female people might be distressed because they see a male there is part of the appeal of being there? How many female people post videos showing them being in female single sex spaces? Male people do it because it is them intimidating female people by showing them who has the power to ignore the needs of female people.

There is a growing porn category of male people with transgender identities masturbating in female toilets. They used to post snippets of their videos on twitter when it allowed porn. They made a feature of the fact that female people could be heard urinating in the next cubicle or that a mother had children in the cubicle next door.

There were two male people with transgender identities famously mocking female toilet sounds on twitter not that long ago. Mocking female people for making toilet sounds.

There are many ways to cause harm to female people without attacking them directly. And there is a group of male people posting this content directly to women so we know that they are doing this and that we know why they are posting this content. To intimidate and distress. It is all there in the public domain and not hard to find.

it is more than being attacked.

It's also worth making the point that even if a particular group of male people were statistically unlikely to harm women (it is possible that this is true of gay men, for example, or men who play badminton), it still wouldn't matter. Because when women see a male stranger, all we can see is that he is male. We can't see his sexual orientation or his gender identity. We can't see what hobbies he has or how he votes or whether he is a cat person or a dog person. We can see that he is male. And we can see other visible things such as his ethnicity.

So even if we could be 100% sure that men who like knitting hats for premature babies are completely 100% safe, we still have to ban men who like knitting hats for premature babies from women's spaces because we can't tell the difference between them and gay men, trans women, regular men, sex offenders, Tory voters or what have you.

We can only assess risk on the basis of the information available to us. In the case of a stranger in a toilet, that's what we can see. We can see that he is male and we know that makes him a potential threat. We can see that he is wearing a skirt, but we know that doesn't make him safe.

It doesn't matter what men identify as.

They still stay men.

Men who think they can magically turn into women by changing what they wear or putting on make up are just men following sexist gender stereotypes.

This is a material reality. It is not pro or anti trans.

It is a neutral observation.

Do you genuinely think a straight male attacker would go to the bother of pretending to be trans when he can just push the door and enter like they always could.

Yes. Why would you assume a man who is happy to attack a woman wouldn't go to the bother of pretending to be trans?

Yup. One of just many, many examples

They. Are. Both. Men.

Maybe you should go somewhere and find some ciswomen to talk to then about their behaviour as the majority of women in here are just women.

You're in the wrong place if you wish to tell ciswomen they are morally bankrupt.

Women wanting single sex spaces is not immoral but women wanting them to remain single sex by excluding all males from them, regardless of how they identify, is 'morally questionable...hideous behaviour'. Glad you've cleared that up.

What is morally questionable is the aggressive, dismissive, and frankly bankrupt hideous behaviour toward trans-women by many - but not all - cis women.

first of all fuck of with cis. Im
not a subset of my own sex class. I know you’ve been told this before but I’ll say it again anyway

secondly receipts please for the above statement. In particular

1. gender critical women marching with signs saying decapitate trans women or piss on shon faye
2. gender critical women threatening TW (men) with death or violent sexual assault
3. gender critical women surrounding meetings of Trans ppl and harassing them on the way, screaming and banging on windows while they speak and contacting venues threatening violence if the meetings are not cancelled

that Will do for a start

of course there is no evidence of any of that do your pathetically childish complaining about aggression are completely meaningless but do keep trying it’s not like we haven’t heard this all a million times before

oh wait! We have

Fair enough I get your point. I shouldn't have entered a debate that I wasn't informed enough on.

I've yet to meet a woman with PCOS that looks like a man so I very much doubt you actually look like a man. I sure as hell dont, even with the thinning hair and too much facial hair for my liking.

The whole thing about not being able to police toilets is because the social contract that worked perfectly well for years has been eroded by the trans lobby insisting any bloke who utters the words "I am a woman", whether that was five minutes ago or five years ago be allowed into single sex women's spaces.

So for the past few years women have been reprimanded and ended up in employment tribunals for even dare suggesting a man might be there for nefarious reasons.

We are now thanks to the SC back to the social contract being in place and that means the good men stay out so the bad men stand out.

We are now back a position where women can say excuse me mate I think you are in the wrong toilets because the supreme court has said actually NO! men, with or without a GRC who claim womanhood are actually men and aren't welcome in the womens.

Is it going to stop all men who want to be in the womens? No. But it makes it easier for women to do something about a man trangressing those societal boundaries.

It doesn’t matter. All male people need to be excluded as per strong safeguarding risk assessment.

It doesn’t matter what a male person looks like, no female male should have to be asking male people if they are in the wrong toilet and risk being abused, no male person should have to feel that they have to have surgery to enter a space they should not be entering in any case, no male person should have to be judged on whether they pass or not. No female people should have to assess whether this male person has a conviction for sexual crime.
Just no male people past the age of about 8 years old.

That is the strongest safeguarding we have available.

Ok I didn't know about Katie Dalowtoski and just read an article and that is absolutely terrifying. OK maybe I'm not informed enough to be debating this. Sorry.

The law has been clarified. The answer is 'no'. Males with trans identities should not use single-sex spaces for females.

I think we can safely say that with the statistics on the % of male people with transgender identities convicted of sex crimes compared to the proportion of the overall male population in the UK, we can establish that no male person reduces their risk of committing sex crimes with transitioning. Ie. the process of transitioning does little to reduce the male propensity to commit sex crimes.

Therefore, there is no indication at all that male people with transgender identities commit sex crimes at the same or at a lower rate than female people. It is the opposite.

Hence for safeguarding female people, no sub group of male people should be allowed to accesa female single sex spaces. Because no group of male people can be exempted from the over all group of male population in the UK. If generally male people are excluded, all male people with no exceptions are excluded.

That is what the prison statistics show.

I find this post astounding against the mounting evidence that some men who claim trans identities are known to have done this.

Katie Dalowtoski, used a trans identity to sexually assault young girls in the toilets of a Morrisons supermarket. He's straight.

He's just one example.

Oh go on then, I'd love a bit of pscyho analysis. What do you think is behind my post?

Also I'd love an example of the 'aggressive, dismissive and frankly bankrupt hideous behaviour towards trans women'?

Or do you mean women who call men men, for clarity? We are allowed to do that you know.

Do you genuinely think a straight male attacker would go to the bother of pretending to be trans when he can just push the door and enter like they always could, straight men will continue to attack us (and attack trans women) as they always have. I just don't think trans women are the enemy..... het males are.

"Morally wrong for women to want single sex spaces away from men who claim a trans gender identity?"

That was not what I said. I have my suspicions as to the psychology at work behind your post, but to give you the benefit of the doubt - and in the interests of absolute clarity - I have never, do not, and am very unlikely to suggest women wanting single sex spaces is immoral.

What is morally questionable is the aggressive, dismissive, and frankly bankrupt hideous behaviour toward trans-women by many - but not all - cis women.