Why is anti-trans so important?

It's a video of a person with a dsd whose parents agreed for the surgeons to remove the internal testes when they were a baby, who was put on estrogen at puberty and had breast enhancement surgery as an adult.

"hysterical" (yeah, must be our lack of HYSTerectomy)

"screeching"

And you wonder why you lot are called out for the misogynists you are.

Any more misogynistic, chauvinist slurs you can think to throw our way, @JsmeLegie ? Shrill? Emotional? Banshees?

Transwomen are males with penis and testicles. How is a male "less risk" than a female? How is a fully intact male in dress, instead of a suit and tie, 'less risk' just because he's in a dress?

Did you know evidence and statistics prove that transwomen commit far greater (5 times higher I believe) sex offences than other males, @Eolhc1990 ? Transwomen are far more dangerous than any other male (perhaps look up AGP for some understanding why for some of these). Those of us on here have seen your arguments at least one thousand times before.
PS The "Violent offenders and those with a history of sexual offences" is from Canada. So there are statistics here from the UK, the US and from Canada.

I take a different approach to why trans identifying men should stay out of women's toilets. It's not based on their potential for violence, or the ratio of trans to non-trans rapists, or that they actually be straight men coming to attack us, etc etc.

I just believe in the principle of respecting other people's spaces; any man, trans or not, who uses the women's toilet should not be there, as a matter of principle.

Why do transwomen refuse to respect women's single-sex spaces and stubbornly insist on going where they know they don't belong*
and where they know they are not wanted.**

They don't have to frighten anyone or attack anyone to be in the wrong. That kind of stubborn disrespect is just wrong on principle, scary or not.

cf the UKSC ruling which is crystal clear that women's toilets are for biological women.
* women who say they don't mind sharing a toilet with transwomen are welcome to share with them in the unisex or men's toilet; they don't get to decide for the women who don't want to.

No, it's not. And there is ZERO evidence intersex people are being targeted at all. In fact, they've asked that you stop weaponising them in this debate, so for once, have some self respect for someones wishes.

Not clicking on the link, but your 'gotcha' has been answered at least 3 thousand times before. You realise photoshop can do wonders? It's in person, it is in the MOTION: the gait, not just the voice, adams apple, lack of hips, square jaw, height, limb size, hand size, philtrum width etc.

You must think women are blind.

Why do you think WOMENS RIGHTS are 'anti trans', OP? Are you admitting that to be pro-woman = anti-trans?

What can be more important than saving female only safe spaces for rape survivors? What can be more important than fair and safe sport for girls and equal opportunities?

@Eolhc1990 here's another thread you should check out, which will help you understand why you shouldn't just support this ideology uncritically.

Page 2 | Scottish Greens find a candidate more electorally suicide than Sparkles | Mumsnet

Plenty of men aren't a threat to women. We don't let them all in women-only spaces so what's so different about this lot? Outside their own heads they aren't any closer to being a woman than any other man.

Then they need to update all the mantras and policies that they have influenced and all the guidelines.

And to re-educate everyone.

and to exclude groups of people from the Trans umbrella it seems. Do you think that people cannot be genderfluid ?

All male people are male people. It doesn’t matter how long they have had a transgender identity. Still male. And still have male risk of committing sex offences and still have male physical advantage that can mean increased harm - and they should be treated like all other male people because of this. And they still have male body cues which mean female people are highly likely to correctly identify their sex which may cause distress.

it doesn’t matter how much effort they have made. The reasons are the same regardless of effort level.

Access to female spaces is not to be rewarded depending on effort level.

@Eolhc1990 i'm interested to know why you had those worries about trans women initially.

I think it's really great to learn from these threads. You seem to have started out from a perspective of being worried about a group without really having much understanding. Of the issues at play. I think it's great that you've admitted that, but I'm curious to know why you thought there was a problem.

The reason I asked the question is that I think a lot of people engage without knowing the fact and maybe have read some emotive headlines?

I can't keep up with the thread, but I don't think @deadpantrashcan has come back on my query about out of date definitions.

In general, this makes me wonder how much misunderstanding goes on.

I think it's really good that we can talk more freely on these threads. I don't know what would've happened if someone tried to have this conversation in real life.

Haha, well I don't think most people actually think that and I think activists are moving away from that line of thinking

Thanks. I do think more and more men are claiming to be trans when caught when theyre really not so that for me reduces the amount of actual trans women offences.

To be fair you were the one throwing around insults first, you told me I was ignorant and stupid and bizarrely you then decided to trying to gatekeep who could be trans just because John had only just come out as trans, and you assumed things about what I thought that were wrong.

So why would you be surprised when someone then asked you if you might be a bigot because you were deciding a trans woman was not genuine?

You claimed John was pretending to be trans. No one else did, we accepted his claim of being a transwoman.

You value how others judge you and being perceived as supportive of men's rights to women and their spaces rather than the risks to women, the mental wellbeing of women and the privacy and dignity of women.

I'd say that was pretty bigoted and disrespectful to women.

Do crack on.

Female people also use public toilets differently to any male person. Often it requires using the public space (washbasins) to clean blood, breastmilk, children’s
vomit or drinks or food off clothing.

We should be able to do this without any male person walking in. Regardless of how that male
presents or identifies. That is a major privacy issue for many female people that is all too often dismissed by those who have not had to do this or are very quick to declare they wouldn’t care. But female people deserve privacy as well as safety. And it is never up to another female person to consent on behalf of others.

Are you seriously calling me a bigot? Read my posts.

It doesn’t matter for several reasons.

Ultimately, they are still male people.

But all people who say they are transgender are who they say they are. Whenever they say they are. To gatekeep being transgender is transphobic.

Eolhc1990

do stick around 😀

Sure. Male people may be vulnerable if they have a transgender identity. But so are many many other groups of male people.

Not one group of male people other than children have been given access to female single sex spaces to keep them safe. Not one.

Why? Because human rights only cover segregation of sexes for safety and privacy. No male person should expect to use a freely available public male single sex space separated from other male people. Just like we don’t segregate groups of female people. Because female people are kept safe from male people’s attacks (sexual, physical and intimidation) and given privacy. But there is not expectation that a female person should have privacy and safety from other female people even with some
rare female people being violent and sex attackers. That would be unworkable.

And the statistics show that there is no reduction in the pattern of criminality with any stage of transition in the UK. So it is a very clear safeguarding risk.

So, no. No male people get to use female single sex spaces because they are ‘vulnerable.’ And no, they don’t get to use the space because they have a particular philosophical belief about themselves that doesn’t reflect material reality. It doesn’t matter what they identify as, they are male. That is their body formation.

All the talk about vulnerability is emotional manipulation to distract from the truth.

@Eolhc1990 we truly, and I know I don't speak for every poster, in the main aren't anti trans on here. We are pro woman though.

We don't wish to eradicate trans people. A lot of posters have trans family members: children siblings partners etc.

Transwomen and transmen can live their lives however they want, wear whatever they want, call themselves whatever they want, and I personally hope they find their lives more happy and fulfilling.

There is nothing wrong with a man who claims to be a transwoman using the gents. Despite the TRAs protesting profusely about how unsafe those transwomen would be in the gents there is very little proof of this being true. And even if it were true that isn't a problem for woman to solve. That's a mens problem to solve.

But women are not something that men can actually be, no matter how much they wish they could.

People have to ask questions in order to learn. OP hasn’t been rude or anything, I agree he/she is thinking, learning, and probably mulling it over.

Plus, not in the UK might mean ‘not read anything or seen anything other than inflammatory headlines’.

Here. (Wait for image to upload.)

This is a few years old but I am not aware of anyone having put more recent data online and I haven't done my own FOI request.

So obviously a lot more men, but that makes sense because there are more of them. On a per capita basis though, it would appear that trans women are more dangerous.

There are only two explanations for this.

Either men who identify as trans women are more likely to be sex offenders, or sex offenders are likely to pretend to be trans.

Both of those explanations are very good reasons for keeping all male people out of women's spaces.

I think that this is a good moment to share this thread.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1816266309555884491.html