What is a feminist?

That would depend on what you think Women's Liberation is about. I think it's about liberating women from domestic servitude, from being dependant on men financially, from having men decide what a women is, what they can and cannot say, can and cannot wear.

In order to achieve that we need a fair and equal society, where women can pursue a career, where they can contribute to the accumulated knowledge of humankind, have a say in how the country is run, in short they can have all the advantages and opportunities that men have.

To suggest that women having the right to work and have careers was wrong is so very misogynistic.

That's a really good question. Like so many words, the word feminist has had it's original meaning distorted beyond reason. It is now attributed to anyone whose views range from 'women should have the same rights as men' to rabid, man-hating 'men should have a curfew' types.

For this reason i no longer really use it as a descriptor or identity myself with it at all.

I am aware of that, but that's what was trying to describe by access to specific types of work. I dont think I'm explaining it well, but my nan for instance, no one asked her to leave her factory cleaning job which was hard physical work, but my granny was asked to leave her nice office work.

In the fifties, women could still be made to leave their jobs if they got married, on the grounds that their husband would then support them. I don't know when that was stopped. In a money-based economy, being denied direct access to money except by somebody else's grace and favour is a serious equality issue.

I think your idea that it’s natural that we have the society we have is flawed

we are discovering more and more often how in historic times bones that were assumed male - because of the warrier trappings for example - turn out to be female

and in current times , there are societies where although they have fixed roles for example men hunt and women care for the babies - the resulting society isn’t sexist in that women have the same rights at the table as men and women are seen as the ones keeping the society alive so the power balance is very different - men provide the extras only. Not core

I mean yes if you want to solve every problem by violence then men will win every time - but that’s hardly a thing to be proud of is it! Bloody shameful I would say

I think feminism is about fighting for the right's and protections of females, otherwise known as women, it's about campaigning to realign society so women are empowered to raise to the same potential as the males, otherwise known as men.
I do think it's still about fighting the patriarchy, because men won't allow women to succeed, or reach their potential, because they think it reduces them in someway.
Unfortunately I think the word feminism has been devalued to the point where it's now a mockery, it is no longer about the above, which is why I've switched back to Women's Lib.

If anyone us interested ' technology is not neutral' by Stephanie hare is about ethics in AI and exiting technology and how it already has bias in its structure. It isn't just about women, it includes race etc.

I've heard her speak. Very interesting.

Have a read of the New Testament, @Josefstalin, especially what Paul has to say on the subject of women (especially those pesky widows) and then look at the control the church has had in our society for over 1,000 years, and then tell me that’s “natural” and isn’t structural. Christianity is, by definition, a patriarchal religion. Our culture, our institutions etc are underpinned by Christianity.

I don't think that 'working like men" has been a significant part of feminism.When it came to work it was more about rights to the same pay for the same job and maternity leave and also access to certain types of job or levels of seniority rather than being prevented from doing them by expectations or rules.

I think its easy to forget how high female employment rates have generally been.

Everyone should read that book. I have given copies to so many people since it came out.

Although my best friend said it did cause some marital disharmony because she kept saying “And another thing!” about so many of examples in the book that her husband and daughters threatened to lock it away.

@Josefstalin why do you think it's inoperable to design a world that also works for women. To take women into account for medical issues? To not just use male as the default human?

It's males being the default which makes women less than.

There are so many different things which mean women are treated as less than

Edited for spelling

Actually, @Josefstalin, maybe you might get something from the book “Invisible Women” by Caroline Criado Perez. The tagline is: “Exposing data bias in a world designed for men.”

I think then that most people on here would disagree that you are a feminist then.

Because what women are fighting for is not to be able to “work like men” but to be able to (eg) have bank accounts on their own (UK, 1975), or be able to stand in a court of law and say that their husband had raped them (UK 1991). These things (women not having bank accounts, husbands having the right to force sex on their wives) didn’t come about because of a nice happy division of labour because men are stronger and women are more nurturing. They came about because society treats women as less (less important, less believable, less necessary) than men.

It inevitably meant that men had more power

That’s blatantly untrue. All it ‘inevitably’ meant is that men were physically stronger. Strength ≠ Power

Women have a lot of power men can never have. We can create life and nourish it from our bodies. That power is why there were early mother goddess religions. What was valued was the ability to create, not kill.

It’s only through a patriarchal lens that strength and power are the same. And that’s the value system that puts men at the top.

You’re basically blaming a kettle for not making good toast when you could equally say the toaster is a failure at making tea.

@Josefstalin, you say:

I don’t believe that patriarchal systems have been created to oppress women.

I’m curious (genuinely, not goading) to know how you think women’s oppression came about, if not via men?

Well, I still bang on about dismantling the patriarchy - as a joke. 😁

But then again, is it really a joke? Maybe I'm treating the patriarchy as shorthand for all the ways in which men fail to understand the problems we women face. Or the ways in which the infrastructure of our society is set up for men, not women.

A few months ago I was gobsmacked by a picture on the architectsjournal website of a new or refurbished footbridge at Marks Tey railway station. It has 2m high solid steel walls and a 90 degree turn at each end, such that anything happening on top of the bridge would not be seen from the platform. If I lived in Marks Tey, I would not feel safe using that bridge at night. It's up to feminists to point out failures like this, because men - even good ones - just don't notice.

For more examples, look at the recent Living as a woman thread.

What is equality? You can give the same piece of equipment to a man and a woman that's equality but if the equipment was specifically designed for males then it's not equality because it may not work as effectively for women.

Feminism is about understanding how the world is designed around men and fighting to get that recognized and women taken more into account.

... and, just to clarify, the 'confining ideas about gender' that form a major part of the ideology that feminism counters are either:

1. That women must and/or do exhibit a particular set of gender-expressive behaviours and presentations. (conservative anti-feminism) or ...
2. A particular set of gender-expressive behaviours and presentations are sufficient for being a woman, so that the actual, material status of being a woman cannot be named or defended or constitute the basis of an analysis of women's lack of equality ('progressive' anti-feminism)

I don't think she is wrong, I know she is wrong. It's OK to say you know things that are factual.

Fairness and equality is key absolutely

what it is missing is that the correct actions required to fix it vary because of the “why” unfairness has occurred

ao feminism for the things that relate to the female such as lack of understanding of the menopause

which may be very different adjustment to that needed to provide equality for disabled people - women don’t need to be given additional funding for day to day living as the additional costs are much less than many disabled people face

so the overarching principles are the same but the practise needs to be specific

Yes I'm afraid she peaked early. Now she is well embedded in the liberal establishment. That's a lot to lose.