Help me argue that What it Feels Like For a Girl doesn't prove terfs are wrong

“harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented” that’s quite the claim! Is that literal harassment, torture, marginalisation, dehumanisation, bullying and tormenting or of the hurty feelz variety?

Then I guess if you don't want to meet her halfway by watching at least some of it then there's no conversation to be had. The end. Refusing to try and see where she's coming from so you can talk things through won't get you anywhere

Wow, @AidaP, where did that come from? What filter have you put between yourself and the world that you can see it like that?

I'm trying to work out how homophobic bullying, sexual abuse and prostitution leading a nascently gay young man into female identification proves 'TERFS' wrong?

What is it i'm missing?

Keeping single-sex spaces single-sex is a tangible gain. Prisons, for example. Do you want another Karen White case?

I doubt you’ll be able to give her lots of facts and figures to convince her. Remember if she’s a bit behind she’s at the BeKind beginning which is where most people start. Worth saying that you started where she is now but as you’ve seen what self ID has done to women you became less sympathetic - which isn’t the same as hatred.

So asking questions might work? Like - so you think it was OK for Sandie Peggie to be disciplined and sacked for saying “but you’re a man”? What did you think of 16 year old Cerys getting a 12 month football ban for asking a 26 year old bearded player on the women’s team “are you a man”? If you were the woman who was raped on a Kent NHS ward would you expect them to say “there was no man on the ward” because her attacker was a TW? If Cass is harsh get her to watch the Ritchie 5mins Battle of Ideas YouTube clip?

Obvs not all these things at once but more of a drip drip over quite a long time. Maybe start with Ritchie’s film because kids and sports are the things which overcome resistance to changing POV most. And it’s a horrificly graphic illustration about why Cass was not at all harsh if you’re a teen caught up in all this?

What do YOU got that proves her wrong?

My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT, and did all of it for absolutely no tangible gain; simply driven by unrealistic and unreasonable fears (and they have no basis in reality, yes singular incidents CAN happen, but that's no basis for policy making). No better than any other type of bigotry like racism.

To give a practiced example is the often thrown around criminality pattern. The whole thing originated from 1 page written by non-scientist as "summary" of a study. Since then author of the actual study that was surmised came out and debunked the summary, and stated clearly that the summary is not backed up by the study and that it's misrepresenting the work.

And having to face up to this reality is just too much to handle, which is why trying to argue away from this mentality is so problematic and will not be done with facts as you are dealing with deeply rooted feelings. Same as was successfully done in cases of other bigotries.

And now cue in tons of people quoting it and airing out their fears based on nothing resembling reality and in the process completely doing the things I said to trans people at large, because... Yeah, it's a hard thing to accept that you may be the baddie.

I would watch it with an open mind and give her your honest opinion. (I did try reading the book but it is bloody awful, almost unreadable, so I'm afraid I didn't get far, but I understand the author had a troubled youth and for that he has my sympathy).

I find people like your acquaintance fascinating and she is not alone, being on the surface reasonably intelligent but then on this issue, very much wrong end of the stick as to what sex realists actually think. The fact she think HJ's book is full of hatred shows she is not keeping an open mind. Will she agree to read the book if you agree to watch the series?

You will need to find some common ground, eg sympathy for those who feel they don't fit in (we can all agree there hopefully), men in womens sports, or sharing cells in prisons, or the lack of positive evidence for medical treatments for GQ children, and take things from there. (Whatever you do, don't start with toilets.)

She has no idea of the complexity or reality of the situation and thinks trans people are vulnerable souls who probably have some genetic or neurological predisposition that leaves them feeling that they are in the wrong bodies.

That's fine for her to think that, no arguments there. But they ARE in the wrong bodies and therefore cannot use the single sex spaces provided for the sex they want to be rather than the one they are.

It's tough but it's just one of life's difficulties that they are going to have to manage. The same way that people born with disabilities have to manage their condition in their everyday lives. It's not fair but it is what it is.

I think you should watch some of it as she made the effort to read a few chapters of the book. At least then you might get an idea of why she thinks like she does.