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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me argue that What it Feels Like For a Girl doesn't prove terfs are wrong

212 replies

Pluvia · 21/06/2025 20:05

I'm in a women's discussion group with a woman who is an expert in her field of medicine. She's worked for some years with the WHO and other major agencies and has only recently returned to the UK after about a decade working in Geneva, with stints in Ethiopia and elsewhere in the developing world. Her specialist field is a particular area of women's health. She knows what a woman is.

Sex realism/ the GC pov seems to have completely passed her by. She has no idea of the complexity or reality of the situation and thinks trans people are vulnerable souls who probably have some genetic or neurological predisposition that leaves them feeling that they are in the wrong bodies. She thinks Cass is unduly harsh. Although her life appears to be focussed around women's health, she seems blind to the feminist or women's rights issues inherent in GI.

She has no idea about sexual fetishes, AGP, attacks on women, the misogyny and homophobia that lies behind so much GI. She can't understand how someone like me, who appears to be so reasonable on so many other topics, can be so cruel when it comes to transpeople. I asked her to read Helen Joyce's Trans and she said she tried but couldn't bear the hatred that she experienced in the first few chapters. She has now sent me a link to What It Feels Like For a Girl. which, she says, will show me what I've misunderstood and why my attitude is so harsh.

I'm not going to watch WIFLFAG and give a misogynistic, homophobic gay man any oxygen. Any thoughts on what I can say that might get through to her? At what point with people like her does one just give up?

OP posts:
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EmptyPocketBlues · 21/06/2025 22:24

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 21:36

For me there are two important questions here.

  1. What is a woman?
  2. What does it feel like to have gender dysphoria?

It is important to understand that these are two entirely separate questions.

So let's be charitable and assume that all trans identifying people really do feel incredibly strongly that they should have been born the opposite sex, and that how they feel inside is how it feels to be the opposite sex. (They cannot, of course, actually know how it feels to be the opposite sex, or indeed how it feels to be any person other than themselves.) Let's assume that being in their sexed body causes them acute emotional distress every day of their existence, and that the only thing that makes them feel even a little bit better is people accepting them as a member of the sex they wish to belong to.

Even if all of that were true, for all trans people, it still wouldn't change what a woman is.

My existence, my reality and my lived experience as a woman is not conditional on how trans people feel. Women would be women, whether or not there were any trans people in the world.

And even if being female and not having gender dysphoria were an identity, which I dispute, it would not be the same identity as being male and having gender dysphoria.

So whilst I understand that not being accepted and included as a member of the opposite sex night make trans people feel very sad, I still believe that female people exist as a distinct class of people, that we need a word for that group, and that that group need some sex based rights. I could talk to a thousand trans people and they could all be lovely, and so, so sad, and it would not change my opinion about that even one iota.

Womanhood isn't a 6 year old's birthday party, where you have to include everyone otherwise the person who gets left out will be really sad. It's an important concept in its own right, grounded in material reality, and our ability to discuss it and organise ourselves on the basis of it should not be curtailed or hampered because another group of people are unhappy about it.

Well we do have words - women and transwomen. Everyone knows when you say transwomen that is a man so theres not really any confusion there

teawamutu · 21/06/2025 22:24

Sounds like a dangerous mixture of self-righteousness and arrogance.

I'd steer well clear.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 21/06/2025 22:23

OP this is maybe going back to basics, but as a counter-argument have you shared with her what JKR actually wrote (as opposed to what TRAs said she wrote)? It's very gently worded and logically set out. https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
Others on this thread might also benefit from reading it. It's a great starting point for then digging deeper into GC.

Heggettypeg · 21/06/2025 22:21

Fingernailbiter · 21/06/2025 22:15

Yes to all this! (Except I think you mean Paris Lees, not Paris Hilton.)

Lol, yes I do. I just realised what I'd written. It's been a long day...

Pluvia · 21/06/2025 22:21

Arran2024 · 21/06/2025 22:15

Does she think a young, attractive, feminine looking boy is representative of the trans community? This is the Dylan Mulvaney trans type, what they call "dolls". Then there are the "bricks", who are the older, non-passing guys who the dolls blame for all the trouble.

I suspect she needs more exposure to the bricks!

Yes, this is almost certainly true. But she would accuse me of being cruel and harsh if I were to ply her with pix of the bricks, or images in which men are threatening people. I've tried, starting gently and I've asked her to comment on a couple of articles about trans crimes. She's responded with articles about violent women harming children and a sharp telling off about not all transwomen being sex offenders.

The bottom line is, I think, that she doesn't want to know. Possibly WHO indoctrination.

OP posts:
CassOle · 21/06/2025 22:21

@Pluvia Ask her this question, because if your friend thinks that the girl (in the question) is transphobic to want actual single-sex care, you friend untethered from reality on this subject.

"Should a young teenage girl, who has been bady injured in a car crash and needs intimate care while they recover in hospital (bed baths, help with a bed pan, wiping after using the bed pan, changing sanitary pads/tampons etc) who has requested same-sex care get a female nurse for that intimate care rather than a male who identifies as a woman?"

The one time that a TW actually answered this question on this forum, they said that the care should be provided by a biological female and not a TW. So far, the TRAs (who may, or may not be trans identified) who post on this board have not answered it, despite being asked several times.

Despite what Aida asserts, the reality is that human beings cannot change sex.

Heggettypeg · 21/06/2025 22:19

Heggettypeg · 21/06/2025 22:10

I haven't read the book or seen the film, so I don't know the details of this particular story. But if Paris Hilton was born physically male, we are up against the same problem as ever :
If it's not about the sex of their body, the "girl" part can only consist of feelings and thoughts and/or possibly some neurological quirk which we can't identify and confirm yet. In other words, something presently invisible to others.
By the same token, unless Paris Hilton is psychic, or privy to some advanced medical technique the rest of science doesn't know, the invisible thoughts, feelings and neurology of others are a closed book to PH, including those of people who are indisputably female.
So why and on what evidence does Paris Hilton identify what is going on inside themself as actually "girl" rather than as "young man who doesn't confirm to male social stereotypes"? Does PH explain this? If not, how does your friend explain this?

Sorry! I think this should Paris Lees throughout, shouldn't it? Time I went to bed! Where did I get "Hilton' from, are they somebody famous?

ChocolateGanache · 21/06/2025 22:17

We should listen more to each other or we just get stuck in shouty polarised arguments.

I asked a friend who leads a charity supporting women who get put in prison what she thought about trans women being in female prisons & she said it’s really the very least of the problems faced by women inside. She honestly didn’t see it as a big issue.

I couldn’t bring myself to start telling her about her profession. 🤷🏻‍♀️

WallaceinAnderland · 21/06/2025 22:16

Soontobe60 · 21/06/2025 22:02

Eh? Everybody since time immemorial has been born with the body they are born with. There’s no wrong or right.

No, I mean it's fine for her to think that if she wants and fine for others to think it but if that is what they do think then they also have to accept that they are in the 'wrong bodies' for the single sex spaces they want to use.

So if a male person (transwoman) who wishes he was female can say that he's in the 'wrong body', then he knows to keep that body out of female spaces. It does not belong there. It's the 'wrong' body (ie it's male!)

Pluvia · 21/06/2025 22:16

I really wouldn’t bother trying

Yes, I know. I guess I see her as a challenge! If she was GC she could be influential. And I guess I'm flummoxed by these women (I've known a few) who look and sound like feminists in everything they do except for this, most basic, most material, level.

OP posts:
Fingernailbiter · 21/06/2025 22:15

Heggettypeg · 21/06/2025 22:10

I haven't read the book or seen the film, so I don't know the details of this particular story. But if Paris Hilton was born physically male, we are up against the same problem as ever :
If it's not about the sex of their body, the "girl" part can only consist of feelings and thoughts and/or possibly some neurological quirk which we can't identify and confirm yet. In other words, something presently invisible to others.
By the same token, unless Paris Hilton is psychic, or privy to some advanced medical technique the rest of science doesn't know, the invisible thoughts, feelings and neurology of others are a closed book to PH, including those of people who are indisputably female.
So why and on what evidence does Paris Hilton identify what is going on inside themself as actually "girl" rather than as "young man who doesn't confirm to male social stereotypes"? Does PH explain this? If not, how does your friend explain this?

Yes to all this! (Except I think you mean Paris Lees, not Paris Hilton.)

Arran2024 · 21/06/2025 22:15

Does she think a young, attractive, feminine looking boy is representative of the trans community? This is the Dylan Mulvaney trans type, what they call "dolls". Then there are the "bricks", who are the older, non-passing guys who the dolls blame for all the trouble.

I suspect she needs more exposure to the bricks!

Soontobe60 · 21/06/2025 22:15

AidaP · 21/06/2025 21:00

Incorrect, house of parliament made it clear that transgender people in there can continue to use bathrooms as they see fit, explaining that so far law on use of toilets is not as clear as some try to make it. You can read it as it was public through MP interpolation.

But again, if you don't want to see, you won't. This is the difference between seeking validation - find what you like and move on - and actual research where you double and triple check everything, including bits you like.

And even if the law was as you dream of, which so far it isn't, this is civil law, not criminal. That means you cannot then decide to take matters into your own hands and harass another person, that actually makes you a criminal, and yep, MET was notified of the incident and is investigating.

Edited

If what you allege is correct, why did the women receive a written apology? You’re spouting more lies.

Soontobe60 · 21/06/2025 22:10

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:54

You didn't see a transgender barrister being followed and harassed at parliament bathroom by 2 transphobic activists two week ago?

No one is as blind as the one who refuses to see... Or warped their views to the point where behaving like that is perfectly fine and acceptable because the victim is in minority you do not like.

The reality of that incident is that the two women were inside the toilets when a male entered. A male who knew full well that he was entering female only toilets and that there were women inside.
Explain to me in words of 1 syllable why it’s now ok for a male to enter single sex female spaces?

Heggettypeg · 21/06/2025 22:10

I haven't read the book or seen the film, so I don't know the details of this particular story. But if Paris Hilton was born physically male, we are up against the same problem as ever :
If it's not about the sex of their body, the "girl" part can only consist of feelings and thoughts and/or possibly some neurological quirk which we can't identify and confirm yet. In other words, something presently invisible to others.
By the same token, unless Paris Hilton is psychic, or privy to some advanced medical technique the rest of science doesn't know, the invisible thoughts, feelings and neurology of others are a closed book to PH, including those of people who are indisputably female.
So why and on what evidence does Paris Hilton identify what is going on inside themself as actually "girl" rather than as "young man who doesn't confirm to male social stereotypes"? Does PH explain this? If not, how does your friend explain this?

Soontobe60 · 21/06/2025 22:06

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:23

What do YOU got that proves her wrong?

My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT, and did all of it for absolutely no tangible gain; simply driven by unrealistic and unreasonable fears (and they have no basis in reality, yes singular incidents CAN happen, but that's no basis for policy making). No better than any other type of bigotry like racism.

To give a practiced example is the often thrown around criminality pattern. The whole thing originated from 1 page written by non-scientist as "summary" of a study. Since then author of the actual study that was surmised came out and debunked the summary, and stated clearly that the summary is not backed up by the study and that it's misrepresenting the work.

And having to face up to this reality is just too much to handle, which is why trying to argue away from this mentality is so problematic and will not be done with facts as you are dealing with deeply rooted feelings. Same as was successfully done in cases of other bigotries.

And now cue in tons of people quoting it and airing out their fears based on nothing resembling reality and in the process completely doing the things I said to trans people at large, because... Yeah, it's a hard thing to accept that you may be the baddie.

Edited

Utter nonsense 😂😂😂

Pluvia · 21/06/2025 22:05

Shortshriftandlethal · 21/06/2025 20:36

I'm trying to work out how homophobic bullying, sexual abuse and prostitution leading a nascently gay young man into female identification proves 'TERFS' wrong?

What is it i'm missing?

Sort of what I'm wondering, too. Paris Lees has been around for years. We can all see how troubled he is, how homophobic, and how toxic his solution to his troubles has been. But she doesn't see it.

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 21/06/2025 22:02

WallaceinAnderland · 21/06/2025 20:13

She has no idea of the complexity or reality of the situation and thinks trans people are vulnerable souls who probably have some genetic or neurological predisposition that leaves them feeling that they are in the wrong bodies.

That's fine for her to think that, no arguments there. But they ARE in the wrong bodies and therefore cannot use the single sex spaces provided for the sex they want to be rather than the one they are.

It's tough but it's just one of life's difficulties that they are going to have to manage. The same way that people born with disabilities have to manage their condition in their everyday lives. It's not fair but it is what it is.

Eh? Everybody since time immemorial has been born with the body they are born with. There’s no wrong or right.

Mulberryblackbird · 21/06/2025 21:59

I think the main argument, which is so often overlooked and ignored, is that telling women we are not allowed to identify as women (which we cannot do according to the trans definition, as we don't possess their elusive inner womanhood feeling) because actually our identity is determined by a secret, inner feeling possessed by some biological males (but by no biological female we've met or heard from) and which we do not possess (or we'd have some idea what on earth it might be) ...is surely doing exactly what we're accused of doing to those biological males?

BellissimoGecko · 21/06/2025 21:54

Fingernailbiter · 21/06/2025 21:23

Reports of the incident and its aftermath are rather different from your version of events. (And note there are gender neutral toilets available.) This is from The Times:
^^
In an email sent to Harris and Binning on Thursday afternoon, a senior staff member in the House of Commons wrote: “You noted that an individual, understood to be biologically male, had seemingly been directed to the female facilities … At this point you made it clear that you were uncomfortable, left the facilities, and reported the matter to members of my team.
^^
We acknowledge that it is likely the individual you complained about should have not been directed to the female facilities and we apologise for that.”

This!

BellissimoGecko · 21/06/2025 21:51

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:54

You didn't see a transgender barrister being followed and harassed at parliament bathroom by 2 transphobic activists two week ago?

No one is as blind as the one who refuses to see... Or warped their views to the point where behaving like that is perfectly fine and acceptable because the victim is in minority you do not like.

Actually, no. The trans barrister followed the two women into the toilets. He was not harassed at all.

The trans barrister, who had previously been a frequent visitor to the HoC, apparently, had to be directed to the nearest loos, which just happened to be female. There was a unisex loo an equal distance away.

RMW is a huge great bloke. No wonder women don’t usually object out loud when RMW goes in their bathrooms. They are probably too scared too. But since he went in a women’s loo when he was at the HOC to talk about the SC judgment, I have no sympathy. He knew damn well he should go to a unisex loo, but he thought his feelings came first.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 21/06/2025 21:43

You could quote Orwell "There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them."

and then point out that "Women’s rights are hard won rights, based in women’s inescapable bodily reality. ‘Trans rights’ are concepts and ideas which are hard pin down, because they are based in thoughts, perceptions and behaviours only." (not sure who said that one)

Then give up on her because she's clearly not going to budge, I no longer care about the transmaidens, they're a lost cause, if it weren't for the damage they're doing, I'd ignore the lot of them.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/06/2025 21:36

For me there are two important questions here.

  1. What is a woman?
  2. What does it feel like to have gender dysphoria?

It is important to understand that these are two entirely separate questions.

So let's be charitable and assume that all trans identifying people really do feel incredibly strongly that they should have been born the opposite sex, and that how they feel inside is how it feels to be the opposite sex. (They cannot, of course, actually know how it feels to be the opposite sex, or indeed how it feels to be any person other than themselves.) Let's assume that being in their sexed body causes them acute emotional distress every day of their existence, and that the only thing that makes them feel even a little bit better is people accepting them as a member of the sex they wish to belong to.

Even if all of that were true, for all trans people, it still wouldn't change what a woman is.

My existence, my reality and my lived experience as a woman is not conditional on how trans people feel. Women would be women, whether or not there were any trans people in the world.

And even if being female and not having gender dysphoria were an identity, which I dispute, it would not be the same identity as being male and having gender dysphoria.

So whilst I understand that not being accepted and included as a member of the opposite sex night make trans people feel very sad, I still believe that female people exist as a distinct class of people, that we need a word for that group, and that that group need some sex based rights. I could talk to a thousand trans people and they could all be lovely, and so, so sad, and it would not change my opinion about that even one iota.

Womanhood isn't a 6 year old's birthday party, where you have to include everyone otherwise the person who gets left out will be really sad. It's an important concept in its own right, grounded in material reality, and our ability to discuss it and organise ourselves on the basis of it should not be curtailed or hampered because another group of people are unhappy about it.

moggly · 21/06/2025 21:34

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:54

You didn't see a transgender barrister being followed and harassed at parliament bathroom by 2 transphobic activists two week ago?

No one is as blind as the one who refuses to see... Or warped their views to the point where behaving like that is perfectly fine and acceptable because the victim is in minority you do not like.

My understanding of the situation is that he followed Kate and Heather into the female toilets and they quite rightly asked him to leave.

There was also a unisex toilet the same distance away from the committee room that he could have used if he wasn't so insistent on invading women's spaces.