Help me argue that What it Feels Like For a Girl doesn't prove terfs are wrong

I'm a big fan of debating but part of debating is understanding why the person in opposition holds their beliefs. You have to be open to reading/hearing their side of it, not just presupposing that you know more and therefore your opinion is right. I enjoy hearing a person's reasoning behind their argument. I usually learn something or at least learn why they hold their opinion.

No, it's a sensible point.

You can't browbeat anyone or force a view on others. Discourse requires both sides to listen, attempt to understand, and offer reasoned counter arguments.

Otherwise, it's just an argument. Pointless.

I think the PL dramatisation might give you more information to structure your argument. I have only watched the first episode but I think if it goes the way I think it will it doesn't shore up their arguments. I will have to watch the whole thing to be sure and to be honest I wasn't that impressed with the production for a number of reasons.

Male feelings are often given more weight and import than those of females.

Why 'transwomen' being disallowed from using womens spaces is portrayed as 'devastating', because their desire to use a space free of males is seen sympathetically, while women asking for spaces free of males is portrayed as "bigotry".

Well… everyone’s feelings except women’s.

Thank you and I agree with you

The rise of 'trans' has certainly coinicided with the reported rise inn mental health issues and diagnoses in western populations. Everyone's feelings are supposed to be so fragile they must be centred at all times. Mental health issues and diagnoses have become just another ' identity'

Exactly. The average person is going to think of Hailey Cropper from Coronation St (who was actually played by a woman), the Big Brother winner from years ago, Dylan Mulvaney, the actors who have been in films recently, the models, the children of celebrities....

I recall seeing PL on a reality TV game show years ago ( can't recall which one now), but their 'femininity' was very staged and performative and they seemed incredibly controlling and narcisistic.

No,we don't know.

Most people seem to have an idealised version in their mind of what a 'trans person' is supposed to be or look like...usually involving great suffering, a gentle, fragile nature and in need of everyone's affirmation and support. Totally 'harmless'.

The reality is often quite different..and this then leads to people saying " oh, but they are not really trans"

The difficulty with defining ‘trans’ is that there is no core meaning.

biologically no one can transition.
gender - you can’t transition either (as it is ephemeral, all you do is expand society’s understanding of gender as it applies to your sex)

so the word trans has no base in reality - it has to therefore be something of the mind and that makes it impossible to pin down…

• body dysmorphia - an illness of the mind
• sexual deviancy
• a power trip and desire to put down women
• uncertainty in how to react to hormones and societal pressures (often seen in autistic girls)
• pressure to conform to someone external’s ideals - seen in some children (perhaps more realistically re-phrased as child abuse)

So you are saying we should let violent men and men with a fetish into women’s spaces because they’ve had a hard life? What about all the women who’ve had hard lives but don’t feel the need to commit violent acts or impose their sexual kinks on unwilling victims? Why do the feelings of the violent men trump those of any women who may be traumatised or uncomfortable in mixed sex spaces?

Listening to Julie Bindel's podcast Julie in Gender land will give you a wide ranging approach to the arguments you could use. She interviews a wide range of people coming at the it from lots of perspectives. There is a psychiatrist she interviewed that is particularly good at articulating what is happening.

I take issue with the very concept of a 'trans person' as a discrete category of human being - with some sort of fixed and unchanging reality.

'Trans' is a conceptual term used to describe those who, for whatever reason, choose or feel the urge/desire/need to present, in some way, as the opposite sex.

People adopt trans identities for all sorts of reasons, and many also desist.

In 2010 when I was still teaching, there was no such thing as a 'trans person' ( as we understand it now)...nobody identified that way, it wasn't a thing. And certainly the 'trans child' had yet to be invented. Everything was about gay rights.

Everyone knew that there were some men who were driven to cross dress or even to go to extreme lengths to have surgery to remove their genitalia.
These men were referred to as 'transsexuals'. Nobody really ever claimed they were women or that they had somehow become female.

I agree, it is pretty neutral in its explanation but like you say, that might be a better way in.

You mean the adult man who blithely broke the law by entering the single sex female toilets?

She is not seeing the nuance, but you refuse to see any nuance either. We can still feel that Paris Lees has been a victim of toxic masculinity, a shit Mother, violence , and fear for their whole childhood. This has informed their mental state and their internal homophobia and misogyny as well as a deep desire not to be a man (based on the men around them) and led them to believe they were 'born in the wrong body'. So it is a neurological condition that makes them feel a need to transition. The feelings are true for that person and denying that it's a real thing for them because it doesn't suit your narrative of what trans people are thinking shows you are being narrow minded.

All that can be true. At the same time it can be true that straight men feel the need to transition because of a weird fetish and they can be treated differently to the traumatised gay men who do this. Is your friend saying they should be in women's spaces? Or is she just saying they need some compassion. Because they do. Everyone needs compassion. Dehumanising people as you have done is never a good thing.

Oh no worries. I didn’t want you to think I was trying to be goady. I really wasn’t. I just think that without definitions and criteria, the whole trans issue is open to too many bad faith actors.

thanks - do you have a link to somewhere thats got the lists as a compare and contrast please?

I get your point. Apologies

If you want a meaningful conversation you need to at least watch some of the show. I very doubt the show proves terfs were wrong but you can't argue that to her with any authority if you haven't seen any of it.

Well it kind of does. Paris lees is a violent man who would be condemned universally for his actions, but because he claims he “feels like a girl”, he’s lauded and has a BBC series made about him. He has no clue what a girl feels like. So what does he mean when he says he’s trans? What does Jonathan Yanie or Lilly Tino mean when they claim to be trans?.

The trans community say Yaniv and Tino are not trans but pretending. How do we know? What is the criteria to say someone is trans and not just a violent man or man with a fetish?

Thinking about what's 'hit me in the stomach', the first 3 that come to mind are: the Darlington nurse Karen revealing that 'Rose' used exactly the same words as her father had used when sexually abusing her as a 6 year old, and that the Trust wanted to insist on 'Rose' being in the theatre for Karen's operarion; the woman who spoke to Paddy's podcast about the experiences of women prisoners in Limerick (where Barbie Kardashian is held); the prison officer who was made to take a suicide-watch shift for a trans prisoner who spent all night masturbating, knowing that she wasn't allowed to look away.

Actually, that’s a good one - I personally found it hedged its bets too much, but that means it’s more likely to be a friendlier entry point to someone who is full-on “be kind”.