Page 2 | Help me argue that What it Feels Like For a Girl doesn't prove terfs are wrong

Pluvia · 2025-06-21T19:05:03+00:00

I'm in a women's discussion group with a woman who is an expert in her field of medicine. She's worked for some years with the WHO and other major agencies and has only recently returned to the UK after about a decade working in Geneva, with stints in Ethiopia and elsewhere in the developing world. Her specialist field is a particular area of women's health. She knows what a woman is. Sex realism/ the GC pov seems to have completely passed her by. She has no idea of the complexity or reality of the situation and thinks trans people are vulnerable souls who probably have some genetic or neurological predisposition that leaves them feeling that they are in the wrong bodies. She thinks Cass is unduly harsh. Although her life appears to be focussed around women's health, she seems blind to the feminist or women's rights issues inherent in GI. She has no idea about sexual fetishes, AGP, attacks on women, the misogyny and homophobia that lies behind so much GI. She can't understand how someone like me, who appears to be so reasonable on so many other topics, can be so cruel when it comes to transpeople. I asked her to read Helen Joyce's Trans and she said she tried but couldn't bear the hatred that she experienced in the first few chapters. She has now sent me a link to What It Feels Like For a Girl. which, she says, will show me what I've misunderstood and why my attitude is so harsh. I'm not going to watch WIFLFAG and give a misogynistic, homophobic gay man any oxygen. Any thoughts on what I can say that might get through to her? At what point with people like her does one just give up?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/06/2025 15:28

PennyAnnLane · 21/06/2025 20:45

“harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented” that’s quite the claim! Is that literal harassment, torture, marginalisation, dehumanisation, bullying and tormenting or of the hurty feelz variety?

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@AidaP forgot ‘literal genocide’ in their hyperbolic post.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/06/2025 15:26

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:23

What do YOU got that proves her wrong?

My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT, and did all of it for absolutely no tangible gain; simply driven by unrealistic and unreasonable fears (and they have no basis in reality, yes singular incidents CAN happen, but that's no basis for policy making). No better than any other type of bigotry like racism.

To give a practiced example is the often thrown around criminality pattern. The whole thing originated from 1 page written by non-scientist as "summary" of a study. Since then author of the actual study that was surmised came out and debunked the summary, and stated clearly that the summary is not backed up by the study and that it's misrepresenting the work.

And having to face up to this reality is just too much to handle, which is why trying to argue away from this mentality is so problematic and will not be done with facts as you are dealing with deeply rooted feelings. Same as was successfully done in cases of other bigotries.

And now cue in tons of people quoting it and airing out their fears based on nothing resembling reality and in the process completely doing the things I said to trans people at large, because... Yeah, it's a hard thing to accept that you may be the baddie.

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Wow, that’s an awful lot of ChatGPT generated word salad.

Original poster

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 15:03

Grammarninja · 22/06/2025 11:46

I'm a big fan of debating but part of debating is understanding why the person in opposition holds their beliefs. You have to be open to reading/hearing their side of it, not just presupposing that you know more and therefore your opinion is right. I enjoy hearing a person's reasoning behind their argument. I usually learn something or at least learn why they hold their opinion.

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She isn't willing to talk about her views on this subject at all. When anyone raises a GC perspective she ignores or describes GC views as harsh or unsympathetic and that's that. No details of why, no engagement with anyone who asks questions, which she ignores. I'm not the only person to find her views on gender ideology incompatible with her clearly feminist, woman-centred approach to all the other subjects we discuss.

OP posts:

moggly · 22/06/2025 14:53

If a man feels harassed, tormented, dehumanised because when he tried to ignore women's boundaries he was told NO, then that's on him.

DrBlackbird · 22/06/2025 14:34

Alltheprettyseahorses · 22/06/2025 11:48

I'm going to go no debate too but from the other side...

As a society, we've got ourselves into the mindset where we fetishise everyone's opinion and must treat it like it counts and has to be respected no matter what. We can't and shouldn't 'both sides' everything - I believe there was even a discussion about FGM on BBC news once where the broadcaster gave equal billing to someone speaking in favour of the practice. That's where it leads us. Watching the show gives what your friend says false validity, you shouldn't be expected to 'educate' yourself out of material truth.

Or of course you could just go back to her as if you've watched it and say omg, a dangerous convicted criminal going in women's toilets, I don't feel safe! There's always that lesson to be learned from the programme I suppose.

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Agreeing here on the fetishisation of everyone’s opinion as equally valid despite wildly varying degrees of knowledge and understanding of a topic.

Also fetishisation of everyone’s opinion irrespective of whether they have ‘skin in the game’ or not, especially those happy to sell out female athletes when they don’t participate in the sport. There was definitely a need to consult (I’m thinking education) on student experience but at the end of the day, it’s the education professionals who know the research and pedagogy, which they seem reluctant to draw upon these days. Also, commodification, which also applies to ‘gender care’.

Also horrified that an ‘adult’ child had a penectomy and vaginoplasty at the age of 19 … 19! When our brain is not even fully developed and not necessarily in full control of our emotions. That is just so sad and the surgeon should be struck off for performing experimental surgery. Makes me think of The Island of Dr Moreau.

Annoyedone · 22/06/2025 14:09

ApocalipstickNow · 22/06/2025 13:56

“My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT”

With the example of someone being told they shouldn’t be in a toilet they shouldn’t be in (and knew that full well).

I hear those who survived Pinochet’s Chile are sending thoughts and prayers.

Yeah. The women in Afghanistan are holding a vigil as we speak for the poor oppressed transfolx

Grammarnut · 22/06/2025 14:07

ApocalipstickNow · 22/06/2025 13:56

“My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT”

With the example of someone being told they shouldn’t be in a toilet they shouldn’t be in (and knew that full well).

I hear those who survived Pinochet’s Chile are sending thoughts and prayers.

I miss the laugh emoji for the 'thoughts and prayers'!

Grammarnut · 22/06/2025 14:04

Pluvia · 21/06/2025 20:22

Perhaps I should add that I am a long-time terf, a lesbian and an activist of some years' standing. This isn't my first rodeo. And no, I'm not going to watch the series.

Watch an episode.
He was the victim of abuse which probably explains a lot. What explains more is that he apparently has never understood he was the victim of abuse.

ApocalipstickNow · 22/06/2025 13:56

“My long held position of why terfs are so militant in their views is that on the opposite of them is start realisation that they harassed, tortured, marginalized, dehumanized, bullied and tormented people who are going through A LOT”

With the example of someone being told they shouldn’t be in a toilet they shouldn’t be in (and knew that full well).

I hear those who survived Pinochet’s Chile are sending thoughts and prayers.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/06/2025 13:17

Hedgehogbrown · 22/06/2025 11:11

She is not seeing the nuance, but you refuse to see any nuance either. We can still feel that Paris Lees has been a victim of toxic masculinity, a shit Mother, violence , and fear for their whole childhood. This has informed their mental state and their internal homophobia and misogyny as well as a deep desire not to be a man (based on the men around them) and led them to believe they were 'born in the wrong body'. So it is a neurological condition that makes them feel a need to transition. The feelings are true for that person and denying that it's a real thing for them because it doesn't suit your narrative of what trans people are thinking shows you are being narrow minded.

All that can be true. At the same time it can be true that straight men feel the need to transition because of a weird fetish and they can be treated differently to the traumatised gay men who do this. Is your friend saying they should be in women's spaces? Or is she just saying they need some compassion. Because they do. Everyone needs compassion. Dehumanising people as you have done is never a good thing.

Those may be 2 very different reasons for believing they're trans, but neither reason makes a man a woman. Neither makes him safe to be in women's spaces, or gives him the right to take women's provision. Neither makes 'their reality' actually real - however sincere their belief.

Whatever reason a man has for thinking he is, or wanting to be, a woman he's still a man.

That's not a matter of nuance, it's a matter of fact.

No amount of compassion for the circumstances that led to his mistaken belief reduce the right of women to equal consideration and compassion for their needs and circumstances.

Original poster

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 13:06

Jewel1968 · 22/06/2025 11:43

I think the PL dramatisation might give you more information to structure your argument. I have only watched the first episode but I think if it goes the way I think it will it doesn't shore up their arguments. I will have to watch the whole thing to be sure and to be honest I wasn't that impressed with the production for a number of reasons.

It hadn't occurred to me that she wouldn't have seen the whole series. She linked to the first episode but I assumed, knowing PL's story, that she was intending me to view the whole thing — the abuse, the crime, prison, the fucked-upness, the lot. But maybe she just saw the first episode and thought I ought to feel sorry for an abused kid, without realising how it was going to develop.

In which case I'm wondering whether I've overestimated her. Perhaps she's just another of the very clever doctors and academics of my acquaintance who are turn out not to be critical thinkers and can be persuaded to believe and do anything.

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PermanentTemporary · 22/06/2025 13:03

No, I agree that if you read accounts by women prisoners and research done with them they don’t see the occasional male locked up with them as that big an issue day to day, provided said male was ‘just like a lassie’ and ‘not taking the piss’. Also due to policy changes in recent years it’s happening much less, which is important to acknowledge.

The articles I have read though also say rather sorrowfully and as obscurely as possible that the prisoners are very pissed off if the male person doesn’t carry on living as a woman once they leave prison - they report feeling used. In general the research says without saying that there can be a culture in a female prison that is supportive of all the women there, and that the culture is vulnerable. It’s interesting that the male people detransitioning once out of women’s prison seems to happen quite a lot.

I continue to believe that no male person should be in the female estate and that the idea of doing this is profoundly anti feminist, but the idea that this issue is still or has ever been the top of the list for women trying to get through the day in jail is not shown in the evidence.

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2025 12:58

@ChocolateGanache perhaps she should check out this, a very brave Irish journalist has investigated the situation with Ireland's female only prison ...

https://x.com/paddyjogorman/status/1692483994007253169?s=46&t=OKyRO4eweTteo5FEt_J1MQ

TheKeatingFive · 22/06/2025 12:55

ChocolateGanache · 21/06/2025 22:17

We should listen more to each other or we just get stuck in shouty polarised arguments.

I asked a friend who leads a charity supporting women who get put in prison what she thought about trans women being in female prisons & she said it’s really the very least of the problems faced by women inside. She honestly didn’t see it as a big issue.

I couldn’t bring myself to start telling her about her profession. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well you could have pointed out that there's a woman in California who is suing the state because she was sexually abused by the man locked up with her in her cell.

I honestly despair of a society that doesn't think there's anything wrong with that. Basic moral and safeguarding principals thrown away to bow down to men's fantasies.

What the f happened to people?

Original poster

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 12:53

maybe she needs to hold the officially sanctioned WHO line if she's to work with them in future
It is impossible to get someone to believe the truth if their job depends on them not believing it.

Her current job doesn't require her to believe it, but she's still got maybe 15 years to go before retirement, so I guess is trying to keep her options open.

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illinivich · 22/06/2025 12:48

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 09:56

I'm an older lesbian who used to live in London and mixed in lesbian and gay circles that included (on the periphery) men like Paris Lees. I might not have had the language to express it, but I knew even in the 80s and 90s, that some femme gay men really hated women while trying to pass as women. I read accounts of Lees's book when it came out: friends (feminists friends and gay friends) talked about it.

I know about the abuse, the internalised and direct homophobia, the idea that girls and women are up for and enjoy abuse and the rest. I'm not going to validate Lees and all the others like him by watching the series.

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I do find the idea that 'homophobic gay man' transitioners being more victim than a problem than 'straight cross dressers' odd. Its a difference for therapists to be concerned with, not women.

We know that the middle age transitioner retcons their past, are we sure men like Paris Lees don't too? His history has been wiped so no one can confirm or deny his account of his life.

But even if the typically homophobic homosexuality man has had a tough early start, why do women and girls have to be a part of their self determined therapy? Why does sympathy for child they may have been get manipulated by grown men they are now?

thirdfiddle · 22/06/2025 12:40

What actually was Lees' crime? They don't imprison teenagers lightly, it must have been something serious.

I'm going to be a hypocrite and say, maybe watch some of it. I haven't myself. But given your friend has asked to discuss it, maybe give it a go and see how far you get.

It is as I understand it a story of an abused teenager being groomed, going off the rails, turning to drugs and crime, maybe internalising homophobia. He has decided 'being a girl' is a solution to his issues. You're free to disagree with that.

But may be interesting discussions to have with your friend about how vulnerable does not necessarily mean not dangerous. Lees was clearly both. And how vulnerable youth may be vulnerable to an ideology that poses as an explanation for why they feel alienated and different.

Grammarninja · 22/06/2025 12:32

I mean Plato's Socrates!!!

EmptyPocketBlues · 22/06/2025 12:18

Shortshriftandlethal · 22/06/2025 11:16

No,we don't know.

Most people seem to have an idealised version in their mind of what a 'trans person' is supposed to be or look like...usually involving great suffering, a gentle, fragile nature and in need of everyone's affirmation and support. Totally 'harmless'.

The reality is often quite different..and this then leads to people saying " oh, but they are not really trans"

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Yes I'm sorry I really didn't think my thought through properly!

EuclidianGeometryFan · 22/06/2025 12:12

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 09:35

@GallantKumquat Thank you for that very detailed account of Trans. I read it when it first came out, in lockdown, and my memory of it was a bit hazy and amalgamated with all the other things I've read since. But yes, I couldn't remember HJ being hateful or harsh, just very clear and factual, and the accusation of hatefulness surprised me and made me wonder whether she'd read it or been told by someone else that it was hateful. Your excellent account of it, particularly the transexual homosexual TW analysis, will help me in my response. I may find my copy of the book (if I haven't given it away, I gave several copies away) and quote from it in responding to her.

Thanks to everyone for your considered responses, I'm reading them all. I really like this woman and would hope that we could be sisters in the fight and friends. Perhaps it's the fact that I find her otherwise admirable that encourages me to keep trying to chip away at her stance on this subject. I'll give it another go or two, but after that I think I probably need to assume that all those years of working for the WHO have indoctrinated her — and maybe she needs to hold the officially sanctioned WHO line if she's to work with them in future. WHO was thoroughly TWAW when I last checked, so I'm presuming it still is.

maybe she needs to hold the officially sanctioned WHO line if she's to work with them in future

It is impossible to get someone to believe the truth if their job depends on them not believing it.

Grammarninja · 22/06/2025 11:59

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2025 11:49

Grammarninja Absolutely. At an impasse, I think getting curious is very useful. why does this woman believe what she does? What does she actually believe? Active listening is a fantastic tool and can be so productive for everyone involved.

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Curiosity and question asking is so important. The less talking I'm doing in a debate with someone of a very different view, the better. Question asking is key. Socrates' Plato is a great example of discourse through posing questions and allowing a person to come to their own realisations.

Azureshores · 22/06/2025 11:59

AidaP · 21/06/2025 20:54

You didn't see a transgender barrister being followed and harassed at parliament bathroom by 2 transphobic activists two week ago?

No one is as blind as the one who refuses to see... Or warped their views to the point where behaving like that is perfectly fine and acceptable because the victim is in minority you do not like.

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Im guessing You mean “you didn’t see a man being told not to go into the women’s toilets” by women?

Let’s talk about things as they really are and stick to facts, not cloud cuckoo land shall we.

This is the problem, this false language and denial of reality. Men cannot turn into women and therefore should not be in women’s spaces. The end.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 22/06/2025 11:53

Alltheprettyseahorses · 22/06/2025 11:48

I'm going to go no debate too but from the other side...

As a society, we've got ourselves into the mindset where we fetishise everyone's opinion and must treat it like it counts and has to be respected no matter what. We can't and shouldn't 'both sides' everything - I believe there was even a discussion about FGM on BBC news once where the broadcaster gave equal billing to someone speaking in favour of the practice. That's where it leads us. Watching the show gives what your friend says false validity, you shouldn't be expected to 'educate' yourself out of material truth.

Or of course you could just go back to her as if you've watched it and say omg, a dangerous convicted criminal going in women's toilets, I don't feel safe! There's always that lesson to be learned from the programme I suppose.

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Long ago in the dim and distant past, journalists were told that if person A said it was raining, and person B said it was not, the journalist’s job was explicitly not to give them both equal time, but to stick their head out the effing window and look for themselves.

edit - spag

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2025 11:49

Grammarninja Absolutely. At an impasse, I think getting curious is very useful. why does this woman believe what she does? What does she actually believe? Active listening is a fantastic tool and can be so productive for everyone involved.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 22/06/2025 11:48

Pluvia · 22/06/2025 11:34

Ah: No Debate in a new guise.

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I'm going to go no debate too but from the other side...

As a society, we've got ourselves into the mindset where we fetishise everyone's opinion and must treat it like it counts and has to be respected no matter what. We can't and shouldn't 'both sides' everything - I believe there was even a discussion about FGM on BBC news once where the broadcaster gave equal billing to someone speaking in favour of the practice. That's where it leads us. Watching the show gives what your friend says false validity, you shouldn't be expected to 'educate' yourself out of material truth.

Or of course you could just go back to her as if you've watched it and say omg, a dangerous convicted criminal going in women's toilets, I don't feel safe! There's always that lesson to be learned from the programme I suppose.