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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.

139 replies

UnlockedXCX · 18/06/2025 19:04

I know I'm making a lot of threads but TRA ideology is so widespread that it makes me question if there's something I'm missing sometimes. I also added a poll. I understand viewpoints are more complicated than being X or Y, but it's just to get a rough idea of mumsnet mindsets. Thank you.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 13:16

Re: Liberalism v Authoritarianism

Remember liberalism encompases the concepts of accountability and due diligence. Authoritarianism seeks to block this to maintain power. You can be a conservative liberal. The political compass has four corners - left and right wing AS WELL AS liberal / authoritarian. This is why I think the OP is particularly unhelpful and why the US political language is actually somewhat deliberately misleading in terms of identity politics (as are the current generation of Liberal Democrats with the UK).

The issue with Gender Identity is it seeks to deliberately conceal reality and those who support it have consistently been resistent to looking at data related to key questions about accountability (or to put it another way ethics and safeguarding). This makes ANYONE who supports this an authoritarian by default.

The Gender Critical movement has three different groups: The conservative Authoritarian Right who don't want to accept non-conformity and LGBT rights on any level, right wing conservative liberals who can be more set in their views about conservatism but are more driven by issues relating to accountability and don't think that its possible if you conceal sex. This group is generally more anti-state involvement in terms of censorship / taxation etc. And finally the left wing liberals who are both liberal and want accountability and are economically pro-state and pro-involvement of government.

The fact the authoritarian left lumps them all together says a lot about their desire to be open and honest an understand problems. Its a silencing technique.

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 19/06/2025 13:11

I'm a leftie. Was always a Green Party member until they stopped actually caring about the environment. Completely comfortable with my GC views because I'm a progressive, and I see gender ideology as being about as regressive as it gets.

NotNowFGS · 19/06/2025 13:07

I am feminist. I couldn't prioritise the interests of men if my life depended on it.

OuterSpaceCadet · 19/06/2025 12:58

Yes I too go back to the political compass every so often. Still bottom left.

AlexandraLeaving · 19/06/2025 11:42

DeanElderberry · 19/06/2025 08:02

That's why political compass is useful - I see they've revised the questions lately, but couldn't do it through to the end because my internet is glitchy atm. I'll go back later to see whether it mentions gender issues at all - it did not in the past. Just stuff like taxes, publicly funded medicine, women's rights, race, capital punishment . . .

It doesn’t mention gender issues. I redid it this morning after you mentioned it - I like to check how my thinking is evolving over time by doing it from time to time. I have moved around that bottom left box but am consistently there. Which probably doesn’t fit OP’s theory.

Cattenberg · 19/06/2025 11:08

Sometimes I feel as though I'm a participant in Asch's line conformity experiment. When everyone else seems to think you are wrong, you should look again and check you haven't missed anything. But nope, line C is still the same length as the target line and that hasn't changed, regardless of how many people want it to be line B.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2024/12/the-asch-conformity-experiment.php

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.
RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 10:55

Igmum · 19/06/2025 10:46

@UnlockedXCXare you American? I’m not voting because I’m way further left than liberal. I just believe in material reality.

Tbf material reality and understanding the importance of it is the essence of liberalism over authoritarianism. Authoritarians hide the truth or make it impossible to get to the truth in pursuit of power and control over the population.

Igmum · 19/06/2025 10:46

@UnlockedXCXare you American? I’m not voting because I’m way further left than liberal. I just believe in material reality.

pontefractals · 19/06/2025 09:58

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/06/2025 22:43

I also don't ever feel I'm wrong about gravity. Or that my politics are relevant to that question.

This is my laugh react. Thank you.

Cycleorrun · 19/06/2025 09:55

I'm liberal, as in I don't agree with authoritarianism. So I voted liberal. Like so many people I am politically homeless these days. The current versions of the Labour and Liberal parties have gone full circle round to authoritarianism as far as I can see. That doesn't make me Conservative and Reform has no appeal for me whatsoever. I ended up spoiling my ballot paper in the last GE.

CurlewKate · 19/06/2025 09:55

@UnlockedXCXYes, I feel like that sometimes. But I think what I really feel is that I want some sort of middle way. I have no problem at all in almost all circumstances with people wearing women’s clothes or using female pronouns, or taking hormones or having surgery if they are adults. But there a few-a very few-circumstances where I think biological sex matters. I am encouraged by the fact that there are trans people who think that too, and in my optimistic moments, I think we will have found a way round this in a year or two.

Fratolish · 19/06/2025 09:49

Do you think maybe your problem is seeing it simply as two binary sides? One lot believe one thing entirely in unison and the other lot believe the opposite, again entirely in unison.

I consider myself gender critical. I don't agree with everything gender critical people say or post though. For example, I absolutely believe in the importance of biological sex and maintaining single sex spaces and sport for women. I don't have an issue with using people's preferred pronouns though - I've seen people refer to that as being 'gaslit'. Not something I personally agree with.

We don't have to walk in lockstep.

I probably feel most closely aligned to left leaning political parties. That doesn't mean I agree with them if they start talking about transwomen are women. I'm not going to suddenly become a right wing Tory or reform voter either, simply because I agree with their stance on one issue.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 09:33

Fwiw surveys of the UK and political beliefs show that the positions of the main political parties in this country are not that closely aligned with the public.

Socially we tend to be a conservative country but this has a couple of anomalies - as I say there's not much of a debate on abortion and gay rights generally have crazy high levels of public support (above 80%) which goes a long way to explaining why the T decided to tag along. There's a tendency towards conformity but we also very much value eccentricity. Just not in our neighborhood! There a whole bunch of ultra straight individuals who do all the right things at the right time - go to school, get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids etc who really struggle with anyone who deviates from this. You don't boast about any achievement. That's seen as crass. We find Americans who do this really awful. We don't like the flag waving 'we are the best in the worldness'. You don't 'get ideas above your station' in the uk. Anyone seen to, becomes a target. But at the same time we love an underdog. That's why we like the eccentric - the eccentric is who we would like to be but are too bothered by what everyone will think to actually do it! So you get people simultaneously worshipping the eccentric, cheering them on whilst trying to also undermine them and trying to bring them down the second they achieve because they've not followed the rules and have got ideas above them! (See the whole concept of 'selling out')

If you want to understand this in a microcosm we have the traditions of buying a pint in the pub. Everyone is equal at the bar. Everyone buys a round of drinks for the group in turn regardless of status. People who are flash and insist on always buying the round are thought of as show off and insulting everyone else. There's a certain pride in paying your way. Conversely the guy who doesn't pay for a round is thought of as tight and shirking responsibility. A working class lad will offer to pay for a round for an upper class gentleman. And vice versa. Its an act of both politeness and demonstrating you can pay your way and equality.

Economically we are a socialist country but we are cheapskates and don't like parting with our cash. This makes us less socialist than most other European countries. There's an underlying belief that goes back to the Victorian working class and some of the non conformist prodestant thinking (Methodists) about making good through hard work rather than taking hand outs. This makes us a halfway house between Europe and America.

We are firm believers in universal health care. Support for the NHS is a nationalist pass time. It's probably the thing that politically unites us most. A couple of political parties would like to dismantle in, in some way but honestly you'd struggle to find something more unpopular with the public.

And then there's politeness. A whole sub-system of communication which no one but the British understands the rules to. Don't rock the boat.

We are also weirdly fiercely anti-authoritarian and this is helped a lot by the way the newspapers, justice system and political system developed (three pillars of democracy).

Orwell was British for a reason though. He understood the dangers of the political left in the context of the British political leaning and how this left us vulnerable to a potential authoritarian left. But this is well ingrained in enough people to understand it.

We also have the experience of the wars on the UK. They left deep scars. A mistrust of Europe and at times something of a feeling of being let down by America. There's the national pride of 'having won the but also the fact we have so many who experienced the hardships of the wars and it's lasting legacies psychological. Our voting system changed after WWI - there was a sense of the betrayal of the working classes as canon fodder by authority and women had worked to fill the gaps left by men in war. Our love for the NHS was born out of it being something the working classes had 'earned' for serving their country. So the dynamics between the upper classes and the working classes shifted. Our love of rights grew from this rather than the American civil rights movement. In this respect we have developed very differently too. Racism is different in the UK and is connected to patterns of immigration / colonies rather than slavery and is linked to issues of British class division. There are stories from WWII of how the British treated African Americans GIs really well and much more equally and the British authorities were told they had to take measures to stop this so that they didn't go back to America and expect the same which really changes a lot of how you think about how you view the war and post war period.

The church has a lot less influence too - if anything it's more or less irrelevant now.

Finally you have to understand British nationalism and sense of self. We like to be the awkward squad. We are not like these foreigners in Europe (who culturally we are actually most likely) not are we like those bloody loud Americans who think they can tell us what to do. As a nation we have an over inflated sense of self but we also are big enough to actually have some influence too. We are also small enough for grass roots ideas (this appears in all cultural fields - from music, the arts, politics etc) to grow and take root at pace. Our centralised nature in London often helps this. We see ourselves as a leader not a follower.

This is why gender criticalness in the UK touches so many different points. Geographically it's easier for us to organise on a grassroots level. We have this long tradition of leading the way (or at least thinking we should). We don't like Americans telling us what we should think. We don't like 'crazy christians'. We have this socialist roots and political leanings that simply don't exist in the US and Americans don't grasp (the OP is actually a good example - we'd probably ask if someone was conservative or socialist rather than liberal).

This is why grassroots have been able to better challenge government because it can organise more effectively. Our legal system isn't political so again we can go against party lines in a much easier way. This means authority has less control. Our laws protect rights in a slightly different way and there's much more transparency across the board. We can gain traction faster because we are a smaller country. We don't have the religious element to contend with. The vast majority of individuals who have taken the lead on the subject in the UK have come from left wing or liberal backgrounds and this is fundamentally different to the US.

It's a really big and complex subject, but one worth exploring because of all the stupid (American lead) tropes about being gender critical is being right way.

It simply isn't true and shows a huge lack of understanding of UK politics and culture the emergence and development of gender critical politics within the UK.

I could write a lot more on the subject but I think this is a fairly decent (and long enough) reflection on the key differences.

Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 19/06/2025 08:39

GC, centre left, absolutely 100% certain that biological men can never become biological women or vv. I have never doubted that that is the truth. I believe in the importance of single sex spaces and that third spaces are a better solution than biological women giving up ours.

PriOn1 · 19/06/2025 08:35

My politics are too complex and I feel like the meaning of the words liberal and conservative are being changed almost as much as words like women and men by current activism.

Before the whole thing went awry, I probably was closer to Liberal Democrat Party views than any other. They seemed more centrist, less extreme. Now I am a member of the Social Democrat Party. I think, in some ways they are conservative with a small c, but broadly their aims are probably closest to my views.

I wish I could believe I was wrong about transactivism. It seems incredibly harmful to me, from the removal of women’s rights to the mutilation of children’s bodies, I can’t remember a time when society was so much at risk. If I could look away and forget all about it, I would, but everything I see tells me it’s a slowly unfolding disaster.

DeanElderberry · 19/06/2025 08:02

MalagaNights · 19/06/2025 07:03

I couldn't vote because I'm conservative and liberal.

They are not opposites.

The left are the current authoritarians.

No one owns liberalism or authoritarianism they shift historically between the left and right.

But only the left seem blind to this.

That's why political compass is useful - I see they've revised the questions lately, but couldn't do it through to the end because my internet is glitchy atm. I'll go back later to see whether it mentions gender issues at all - it did not in the past. Just stuff like taxes, publicly funded medicine, women's rights, race, capital punishment . . .

Shedmistress · 19/06/2025 07:56

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2025 07:16

Ah…do you actually understand what ‘gender critical’ means then? It’s being misused a lot nowadays, especially in the US, I think.

Hey! He educated himself. With one google and found one post and went with it.

That's pretty deep research in these times.

AlexandraLeaving · 19/06/2025 07:41

My politics are firmly socialist.

I have spent my life fighting against regressive gender stereotypes.

I have also lived long enough to experience sex discrimination and am passionate about challenging sexist practices.

Because of these things, I am what is known as “gender critical”. I’m happy for ANYTHING to challenge gender stereotypes. I’m not happy to see protections against sex discrimination being eroded. I see gender ideology as entrenching regressive stereotypes, and eroding protections against sex discrimination.

I regularly challenge my views and thinking on this and other subjects. While I am always open to changing my view - and have done several times on other subjects - I remain convinced that being a sex realist/gender critical feminist is correct. The alternative is to support gender stereotyping and erode the hard-won rights against sex discrimination that have been in place for less than 50 years.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2025 07:16

UnlockedXCX · 18/06/2025 21:08

I am American. I googled if you all had Left/Right parties and found a post that said yes, and just assumed the concepts would roughly translate over. But I guess not haha

Ah…do you actually understand what ‘gender critical’ means then? It’s being misused a lot nowadays, especially in the US, I think.

MalagaNights · 19/06/2025 07:14

And no I don't think I'm wrong about sex realism.
I've tried very hard for years to find where I might be as I've taken wrong positions before strongly believing I was right.
But I can't find it in this. It just seems too blatantly wrong.

But then I also think aborting healthy 37 week babies is blatantly wrong, and many people support that, so you have to conclude being incontrovertibly wrong is subjective and people come to wildly different conclusions.

Unless like me you believe in absolute good and evil, that both confusing and mutilating children and killing babies are both evil.

Is that conservative or liberal?

UpsideDownChairs · 19/06/2025 07:09

As many have said, your categories are not an either/or thing - so don't really work.

Also, I wouldn't say TRA ideology is widespread - I think it just seems like that on the internet. Most people I talk to in real life know that there are two sexes, and want separate facilities and sports for men and women.

AgnesX · 19/06/2025 07:07

I'm a liberal with a small L but I'm fed up of people trying to argue black is white (ie the whole trans thing).

Outside my own home I keep my opinions to myself.

Dailly · 19/06/2025 07:05

Realism is the magic word here and all over this topic.
Without realism life gets so impossible hard. As Humans we have developed all kinds of technologies and techniques to get along at the simple day to day level.
Why throw that all away?
(ps. I know I am right, I take after my mother.)

MalagaNights · 19/06/2025 07:05

You might as well have posted are you conservative or a good person?

As that is evidently the simpleton position many are still clinging to even when the left is evidently doing batshit evil things.

largeknitter · 19/06/2025 07:03

I don’t think I’m wrong about being gender critical. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever felt as right about anything in my life and I just can’t get my head around why so many people still aren’t 😂
Up to about five years ago I was taken in by TWAW, be kind, etc. But once you know, you know.