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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.

139 replies

UnlockedXCX · 18/06/2025 19:04

I know I'm making a lot of threads but TRA ideology is so widespread that it makes me question if there's something I'm missing sometimes. I also added a poll. I understand viewpoints are more complicated than being X or Y, but it's just to get a rough idea of mumsnet mindsets. Thank you.

OP posts:
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WarriorN · 04/07/2025 14:34

Firmly left / green except for this issue. Don’t see myself as GC; do see myself as radical feminist and someone who believes safeguarding is paramount.

NumberTheory · 04/07/2025 06:22

I never feel wrong about being gender critical. I have polls turned off so can't see it.

But I'm left wing. I used to be a consistent Labour voter. But I won't vote for a candidate who says TWAW or otherwise refuses to protect women as a sex class.

I'd wouldn't vote Conservative because I grew up in the Thatcher era and the destruction of community under her leadership still haunts me. Also, they do not align with my other priorities and their last two stints in power have been marred by corruption that undermines democracy, not to mention incompetence.

Last general election I spoiled my ballot. Wish I felt able to vote for someone. I do find candidates at the local level to vote for. Some Labour, some independent.

Edited to broaden my response.

MyKindLimeCrow · 04/07/2025 03:55

I don't feel wrong about being gender critical. I saw first hand in my marriage that to a subset of Trans identifying men, it is a fetish.

BigBadaBoom · 23/06/2025 16:36

Tbh, I've given up on terms like "conservative" or "liberal" as they're too simplistic. I don't want someone to assume my beliefs on x,y or z just because I say I'm one thing or the other. The internet is far more polarised than everyday society (esp. in the UK) imho and it helps no-one to want to be blinkered. After all, political tribalism is why we have both Donald Trump and the TRA movement. The worst of both worlds.

Chersfrozenface · 23/06/2025 15:40

I rather think the OP is using US terms.

Either because OP is from the US, or because OP gets those terms from US-centric internet content.

Grammarnut · 23/06/2025 13:13

RareGoalsVerge · 18/06/2025 19:09

Political leaning aren't a single straight line spectrum. The opposite of Conservative isn't Liberal it's Socialist. The opposite of Liberal isn't Conservative it's Authoritarian. There are Authoritarian parties on both left and right (eg the Green party is quite Socialist but extremely Authoritarian)

What's weird is the way that that the Liberal Democrats are so illiberal on the topic of trans ideology - absolutely no deviation from required beliefs, really Authoritarian on that issue.

Are we misinterpreting liberalism though? (Not that I've any sympathy for the LibDems). Classical liberalism - which the LibDems embrace - involves freedom to behave as you wish in your private life afaik and to present as however you wish.* So support for trans people must follow from that - they are entitled to live as they choose. (LibDems are neo-liberal when it comes to free markets etc.)
Unfortunately, the LDs have a blindspot about how this affects women's right to live as they choose.
*Another example would be (and I don't suggest the LDs actually embrace this one) the absolutely right to do what you please with your property/house, ignoring listed status, your neighbours, the local environment, planning regs etc. (I always see this as an adult manifestation of the 'it's my toy, I can break it if I like' from toddlers, and no, you can't - and I see e.g. Assisted Dying and abortion up to term in this category as well.)
Updated for misplaced verbs.

BabaYagasHouse · 22/06/2025 10:42

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 09:33

Fwiw surveys of the UK and political beliefs show that the positions of the main political parties in this country are not that closely aligned with the public.

Socially we tend to be a conservative country but this has a couple of anomalies - as I say there's not much of a debate on abortion and gay rights generally have crazy high levels of public support (above 80%) which goes a long way to explaining why the T decided to tag along. There's a tendency towards conformity but we also very much value eccentricity. Just not in our neighborhood! There a whole bunch of ultra straight individuals who do all the right things at the right time - go to school, get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids etc who really struggle with anyone who deviates from this. You don't boast about any achievement. That's seen as crass. We find Americans who do this really awful. We don't like the flag waving 'we are the best in the worldness'. You don't 'get ideas above your station' in the uk. Anyone seen to, becomes a target. But at the same time we love an underdog. That's why we like the eccentric - the eccentric is who we would like to be but are too bothered by what everyone will think to actually do it! So you get people simultaneously worshipping the eccentric, cheering them on whilst trying to also undermine them and trying to bring them down the second they achieve because they've not followed the rules and have got ideas above them! (See the whole concept of 'selling out')

If you want to understand this in a microcosm we have the traditions of buying a pint in the pub. Everyone is equal at the bar. Everyone buys a round of drinks for the group in turn regardless of status. People who are flash and insist on always buying the round are thought of as show off and insulting everyone else. There's a certain pride in paying your way. Conversely the guy who doesn't pay for a round is thought of as tight and shirking responsibility. A working class lad will offer to pay for a round for an upper class gentleman. And vice versa. Its an act of both politeness and demonstrating you can pay your way and equality.

Economically we are a socialist country but we are cheapskates and don't like parting with our cash. This makes us less socialist than most other European countries. There's an underlying belief that goes back to the Victorian working class and some of the non conformist prodestant thinking (Methodists) about making good through hard work rather than taking hand outs. This makes us a halfway house between Europe and America.

We are firm believers in universal health care. Support for the NHS is a nationalist pass time. It's probably the thing that politically unites us most. A couple of political parties would like to dismantle in, in some way but honestly you'd struggle to find something more unpopular with the public.

And then there's politeness. A whole sub-system of communication which no one but the British understands the rules to. Don't rock the boat.

We are also weirdly fiercely anti-authoritarian and this is helped a lot by the way the newspapers, justice system and political system developed (three pillars of democracy).

Orwell was British for a reason though. He understood the dangers of the political left in the context of the British political leaning and how this left us vulnerable to a potential authoritarian left. But this is well ingrained in enough people to understand it.

We also have the experience of the wars on the UK. They left deep scars. A mistrust of Europe and at times something of a feeling of being let down by America. There's the national pride of 'having won the but also the fact we have so many who experienced the hardships of the wars and it's lasting legacies psychological. Our voting system changed after WWI - there was a sense of the betrayal of the working classes as canon fodder by authority and women had worked to fill the gaps left by men in war. Our love for the NHS was born out of it being something the working classes had 'earned' for serving their country. So the dynamics between the upper classes and the working classes shifted. Our love of rights grew from this rather than the American civil rights movement. In this respect we have developed very differently too. Racism is different in the UK and is connected to patterns of immigration / colonies rather than slavery and is linked to issues of British class division. There are stories from WWII of how the British treated African Americans GIs really well and much more equally and the British authorities were told they had to take measures to stop this so that they didn't go back to America and expect the same which really changes a lot of how you think about how you view the war and post war period.

The church has a lot less influence too - if anything it's more or less irrelevant now.

Finally you have to understand British nationalism and sense of self. We like to be the awkward squad. We are not like these foreigners in Europe (who culturally we are actually most likely) not are we like those bloody loud Americans who think they can tell us what to do. As a nation we have an over inflated sense of self but we also are big enough to actually have some influence too. We are also small enough for grass roots ideas (this appears in all cultural fields - from music, the arts, politics etc) to grow and take root at pace. Our centralised nature in London often helps this. We see ourselves as a leader not a follower.

This is why gender criticalness in the UK touches so many different points. Geographically it's easier for us to organise on a grassroots level. We have this long tradition of leading the way (or at least thinking we should). We don't like Americans telling us what we should think. We don't like 'crazy christians'. We have this socialist roots and political leanings that simply don't exist in the US and Americans don't grasp (the OP is actually a good example - we'd probably ask if someone was conservative or socialist rather than liberal).

This is why grassroots have been able to better challenge government because it can organise more effectively. Our legal system isn't political so again we can go against party lines in a much easier way. This means authority has less control. Our laws protect rights in a slightly different way and there's much more transparency across the board. We can gain traction faster because we are a smaller country. We don't have the religious element to contend with. The vast majority of individuals who have taken the lead on the subject in the UK have come from left wing or liberal backgrounds and this is fundamentally different to the US.

It's a really big and complex subject, but one worth exploring because of all the stupid (American lead) tropes about being gender critical is being right way.

It simply isn't true and shows a huge lack of understanding of UK politics and culture the emergence and development of gender critical politics within the UK.

I could write a lot more on the subject but I think this is a fairly decent (and long enough) reflection on the key differences.

Thank you for taking the time and thought to outline all of this Red.

Always appreciate your 'big picture' analysis.

Chersfrozenface · 22/06/2025 07:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 19:10

No, I don't think I'm wrong about being gender critical.

Didn't vote in the poll because I don't think I fit in either box.

This.

LauraMipsum · 21/06/2025 22:31

I'm gay, I'm GC and I'm not wrong. I'm critical of gender - which is a social construct disadvantaging women, why on earth would I not be critical of it?

If you're American the question makes a lot more sense - in the same way it does if you're Russian.

In America and Russia you have liberal / conservative which maps roughly onto pro-LGBT / anti-LGBT, pro-choice / anti-choice, pro-feminist / anti-feminist, and ideas about race, and with the conservative choice couched in terms of nationalism, "the family" and religion. They are such rough categories that even where there are conflicts in the liberal position, the liberal position is forced to swallow those conflicts simply because the conservative position is so entrenched and there is only one opposition.

If I were American (or Russian) I would probably put up with the forced teaming because the way trans people there are treated is appalling. However, in the UK, trans people have proper rights - from the very moment they say they are transitioning they are protected. In America and Russia you can have your kids taken away for being trans. In the UK that isn't possible. In America and Russia there are few or no employment rights for trans people - in the UK there are. In America and Russia you can be chucked off your college course for transitioning - not in the UK.

I think we are slowly getting to a stage in the UK where we are recognising protection for women as well as protection for trans rights, and the US and Russia are at least 50 years and probably much more behind that.

Dailly · 21/06/2025 22:12

@RedToothBrush Impressed by your short thesis. But I would add that before the NHS was formed, there were many Friendly Societies and Hospital Clubs that helped ordinary people to access advanced hospital care. My father's NHS number was in fact his old Hospital Club number.

Dailly · 21/06/2025 22:06

Me: GC, sex is immutable.
It is not the similar to being gay. There is nothing I have read that leads me to believe that Trans peeps have not made simple choice.
Whereas the gay friends I know are driven. It is from deep within. Totally different.
Similarly Lesbians are committed and permanent in their lives.
Bi-sexuals might be but many are looking for new thrills and different ways to climax.

99victoria · 21/06/2025 17:56

I'm very much gender critical
Can't vote as I'm neither of those things. I consider myself a socialist - old style labour if you like. I have never voted conservative in the entire 40 years I've been eligible to vote!
(I may have voted LD on a couple of occasions but I wouldn't vote for them now)

Fingernailbiter · 21/06/2025 17:47

No, I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong about being gender critical.

I can’t vote in your poll because it’s too restrictive. I used to vote Lib Dem but can’t any more because of their trans policies. I would never vote Conservative.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 21/06/2025 17:38

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical?

No, never.

Your poll doesn't include my views so haven't responded to that.

TempestTost · 21/06/2025 13:43

I don't really have doubts, the fact is that gender ideology is largely incoherent and has no emperical evidence base.

I do see how for some people they turn it into a kind of parallel language system where they are using ideas in a somewhat different way, but again, I find it largely incoherent when you press it much.

Plus it seems to lead to such damaging outcomes. And a lot of the time it's really just a crass power play.

I despise identity politics in general, too, and gender ideology is just one type of that larger picture.

As far as my political leanings, I believe in liberal democracy, but I am not a liberal in the sense you mean. I accept some of the socialist criticism of capitalism as accurate and also some of the functional power relations it describes are useful, but I think a lot of Marxism is just a weird faith in a kind of undefined "progress." Ultimately I think it is just another system where an elite end up rising to the top and controlling those under them. I tend to think that class is to some extent inevitable, and not a bad thing so long as people still have certain kinds of political and social autonomy and there are limits on the disparities that appear between groups. I don't think the best way to manage that is a socialist system, nor modern capitalism, both of which produce huge bureaucracies and top down power structures.

I do believe in cooperative business credit unions, and self-sufficient communities with political representation tied closely to the community (a place, not an idea.)Some of those seem to be seen as leftist. I also believe in the family as a fundamental political unit, and that classes in society should function together for the good of the whole, and social and legal (and also personal) limits exist in order to allow us to exercise meaningfully free lives in the best way possible. That all tends to be coded conservative.

WallaceinAnderland · 20/06/2025 17:38

@UnlockedXCX which box would you tick?

I'm guessing you're not at all liberal as you are on the team that tries to tell others what to think, say and do?

I'm GC, soft left politics, but will vote for any party that upholds women's rights.

My views are worthy of respect in a democratic society, so I'm happy with that.

DuesToTheDirt · 19/06/2025 20:52

So to me "Gender critical" is knowing that sex is binary and immutable, and that in some areas of life it is important to provide separately for women and men.

"Gender" is nebulous; not everyone thinks they have a gender, for those that do it is an internal feeling, which in some cases changes over time. It cannot be objectively defined and so cannot be a basis for reorganising society.

Statistics show that groups of people behave according to patterns that match their sex, not their imagined gender.

Why would I ever think I might be wrong?

Greyskies92 · 19/06/2025 19:30

I thought I was missing something. I thought I must be. I went mad searching high and low for the bit I was missing in all this. It did nothing but confirm the Emporer was starkers

Livpool · 19/06/2025 18:45

I am gender critical socialist 🤷🏼‍♀️

Afewtimesagain · 19/06/2025 18:14

No, I know I'm not wrong. I interrogate my own opinions on things and I did this with being GC. I'm completely confident in knowing than humans can't change sex, so then the question is whether people who believe they can change sex should take the rights of people who know others can't change sex. And the answer is no, of course not. You don't steal the rights of one group and hand them to another group, that is not equality.

The horror that's gone on with mutilating, sterilising and medicalising children who are not able to consent is mind blowing. I don't understand how anyone can even think it's ok.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 16:55

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:14

I understand the motivation to improve things and that being seen as what 'progressive' means. But I've grown to distrust the idea that there is some form of utopian ideal that we might progress towards.

I'm always minded to reflect that eugenics was once considered progressive, so I like to merely consider whether something is a good idea without lots of bad unintended consequences rather than worrying about trying to be progressive. The problem is the moral tone and the need to virtue signal beliefs as part of identity.

I'd rather simply aspire to use due diligence, be transparent and encourage full accountability without the need for it to be part of any political tribe.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:14

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 19/06/2025 13:11

I'm a leftie. Was always a Green Party member until they stopped actually caring about the environment. Completely comfortable with my GC views because I'm a progressive, and I see gender ideology as being about as regressive as it gets.

I understand the motivation to improve things and that being seen as what 'progressive' means. But I've grown to distrust the idea that there is some form of utopian ideal that we might progress towards.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:12

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/06/2025 15:13

I wonder if you tried that experiment on middle-aged women (especially lesbians) you'd get less conformity. Obedience experiments involving cruelty, women obey less. [insert boring piece about replicability].

Now that, I would love to see!

TheOtherRaven · 19/06/2025 16:09

.

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/06/2025 15:13

Cattenberg · 19/06/2025 11:08

Sometimes I feel as though I'm a participant in Asch's line conformity experiment. When everyone else seems to think you are wrong, you should look again and check you haven't missed anything. But nope, line C is still the same length as the target line and that hasn't changed, regardless of how many people want it to be line B.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2024/12/the-asch-conformity-experiment.php

I wonder if you tried that experiment on middle-aged women (especially lesbians) you'd get less conformity. Obedience experiments involving cruelty, women obey less. [insert boring piece about replicability].

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