Reflections on Trans Arguments

Populism - interesting

I guess it needs to mean something different to democratic which is what you might think it would mean - because the “common man” which is the target of popularism is by far and away the dominant group so by default any democratic vote is broadly the same as the populist vote

fhe fact that it doesn’t mean that is interesting

to me it has an aspect of “us” against “them”
where anyone can find themselves in the “them” group quite arbitrarily .

The most worrying aspect is the attitude of populists to education- got an education? That’s elitist. That’s a reason to ignore you. Seems bloody stupid to ignore and dismiss people because they have learnt things - means you are building your vote on the back of the uneducated and the “self made man” - and suddenly we have a distrust of all experts - who trusts the medics when it comes to vaccination? Not the populist. Who trusts the climate scientist? It becomes an easy way to dismiss anyone you don’t agree with - oh you have studied that have you? Well I know better because I am set taught and don’t listen to the elite expert. By “bigging up” people who are less well educated yih appeal to their personal sense of pride - nasty manipulation to me

Yes it does, but things do get dismissed as “populist” quite freely. It’s a thought terminating cliche sometimes.

I think that wasn't a good definition of populism.

Populism is giving "the people" what they want regardless of whether it will work or not or even make things worse. Often by blaming and punishing a scapegoat instead of tackling hard problems or telling "the people" what they want is not in fact possible.

It's bad because fails to fix the original issues and very often makes things worse.

Exactly.

If you have an issue with left wing parties being unelectable, you put pressure on them. Don’t blame us when they don’t win.

Goes back to the working class get looked down on as idiots point I guess.

Ex Tory voters know better than you left wing rabble, don't you know.

I've never understood why populism is used as a dirty word.
"So let me get this right.... A lot of people support this thing which somehow makes it bad....? How does that work?"
"Yeah it's truly awful, and a threat to democracy that so many people support this thing."
In my opinion the word populism is a way to look down on something a lot of people support. It's a way to denigrate whatever the popular thing is, and somehow strangely, use the large number of poeople supporting the thing as proof it's a bad thing. Goes back to the working class get looked down on as idiots point I guess.
It's very strange that support for something is seen as proof the thing is bad without any real argument.

As a PP outlined, all parties recognise gender and only Reform seems to not give a fuck - except that they do, very much, and in the very restrictive and reactionary manner of women like pink and babies.

It seems all the parties believe those stereotypes - that is what gender is after all. Just some of them think if a man likes pink and babies that makes him a woman and conversely if a woman doesn’t like them she must be a man.

It’s regressive nonsense being espoused by craven idiots and I won’t lend them my vote

Go and lecture them on how important it is to win the female vote back or else they’re letting the bad guys get in!

Fuck me.

This feels like just another 'be kind' lectrure.

Thanks to the time I've spent recently engaging in this debate on this thread and others, I can see the depths of anger within GC feminism. I don't see where that can lead politically though.

Genuinely, @StandFirm, good to see that you understand the anger now.

As to where it leads - for Labour, it leads to an approach which aims to appeal to the voters it wants, by showing it's actually listening and addressing their concerns rather than educating the nasty proles.

Or it leads to defeat, and quite possibly a Reform government.

It's up to them. Entirely up to them. They can make the change, as soon as they clock that their decades-long entitlement to female and working class votes no longer exists.

Anyway, you all know that. If there was a GE tomorrow, I feel extremely pessimistic because the landscape is so polarised, the only winners can be the populists.

Just for reference, a populist is 'a person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.'

Gosh, what a turn up for the books. Those ordinary people and their ordinary thoughts, that want ordinary things like to have a system in place that their taxes paid for, police that turn up to investigate crimes and to be able to afford houses and to see a doctor when ill. What a bunch of bastards.

I think my depth of anger is that the centric/left parties could have clear plans for keeping gender and sex separate and get that middle ground in (single sex and mixed sex options) but they actively don't and with that give the populist parties ammo to make them look stupid and win votes. It is infuriating that women have to decide to throw away their rights or throw away their rights. It is not necessary if politicians would actually stop with their activism.

It is 'Harris is they/them, Trump is for you' all over again

The working class voter (the majority of the electorate) are turning to Reform because they are frightened. They are working harder with less to show for it. They can't afford decent housing. When they're ill, the NHS is failing them, and they lack the cushion of the privileged to ride the storm. The party that should be centering their interests has earned a reputation for caring more about the luxury beliefs of advantaged middle class youth than their less sparkly struggles. When people are queuing for the foodbank, they dont want to see their MP fighting for Bernard's 'rights' to use the ladies. If Labour want to win back the electorate they need to focus on the bread before the already well feds demands for roses.

I see a lot of references to previous threads and posters. I don't know what other posters have written - I'm not interested in slurs, blaming or guilt tripping. What is the best way to bar the way to the parties that are the most toxic? For me that's hands down Reform and the Tories (who fucked up the country for 14 years and purged any centrists from their ranks) As for being more focused on those who should do better or who should be allies... I do get the logic and the need to hold them to a higher standard but I'll stick with bashing those I consider to be the most direct threat overall.

it shouldn’t strain the imagination too much to understand that just because i think labour and the left are failing doesn’t mean i'm going to vote for reform or the tories
i mean it shouldn’t but apparently it does…pathetic
I have pointed out, abstaining also contributes to the victory of whoever gets in. It's merely stating a fact.

Thanks to the time I've spent recently engaging in this debate on this thread and others, I can see the depths of anger within GC feminism. I don't see where that can lead politically though. As a PP outlined, all parties recognise gender and only Reform seems to not give a fuck - except that they do, very much, and in the very restrictive and reactionary manner of women like pink and babies. Anyway, you all know that. If there was a GE tomorrow, I feel extremely pessimistic because the landscape is so polarised, the only winners can be the populists. I don't care about blame, just the result.
Have a good day all.

@LimeFinch your post is long and earnest but shows that you are not well-read on this subject.

(You are free to speak your mind on here - as you see- but you do need to bring reliable evidence if you want to be believed.)

Just think of the poor LibDem or Green voters that are sex realist. They are truly buggered.

Most of us I suspect have been left wing and Labour voters. all or lives. We are not supporters of Reform or the Cons so why talk about them when it’s Labour who are currently in power and who are letting us down. When the PM cannot answer a very simple question, “What is a woman” or “can only women have a cervix” then they deserve nothing but our contempt.

Unlike you I have never voted Conservative when it would probably have been to my personal benefit. I have voted Labour sometimes against my own interests because I thought I was voting for certain principles. But I’m not going to be sorry about having this personal line that I will not cross. Labour can bloody well work to get my vote back, I owe them nothing. And you inferring that that makes me right wing by default? I have no more fucks to give and ‘right wing’ can join all the other slurs thrown our way. I have nieces whose future I am thinking of as well as my own future.

Because conceding what is best for us in the name of the greater good is just what is fucking always expected of us isn’t it?! And it’s just more fucking gender stereotype bollocks.

I for one believe that protecting women’s rights and child safeguarding IS what is best for society though. And I will not be emotionally blackmailed into crossing my personal red line and voting for Labour until they commit to women’s sex based rights.

Those last bits are almost exactly the conversation I had on my doorstep with the labour canvasser last time round.

Who are the “other guys”? We don’t have a two party system in this country. And I’m sorry, no party deserves my vote and loyalty just so the “other guys” don’t win.

Heard a commentator say left and right has actually been replaced by authoritarian and liberal. Oddly the hard left TRA types are authoritarian. Requiring others to comply with their demands see -“no debate” and harsh policing of anyone that dares to dissent. Like those poor parents on this thread.

No more after this from Lime? Apart from things which had to be deleted?
Maybe @LimeFinch is reading the Skrmetti judgement. Of the For Women Scotland judgement. Or the Cass Report. Or Time to Think. Or Trans. Or Material Girls.
Wait, no, that would be.....What's the word..... EDUCATION.

Quite.

It's quite simple for Labour to get left wing gender critical women to vote for them.

Instead of attacking women for not complying and going along with policies that are not in their best interests, how this novel thought - and Labour made sure their policies are pro-women and not misogynistic claptrap.

It's really not hard.

Left wing women WANT to vote for Labour. Stop making it impossible for them to do so.

Once again it's framed as women being in the wrong and not the fuckwits running the Labour party.

To be blunt- as you guys love being- if you vote for Reform or the Tories in the next election, or abstain and facilitate them getting in, it means embracing a whole bunch of truly unpalatable measures that will really hurt women and the country as a whole. Is that really worth it?

As some of us were saying before the last General Election; Labour have no right to make it impossible for women who have a conscience to vote for them, then blame women for not voting for them.
If we did vote for them, we'd be used as proof that the policies are popular. Stop blaming us for the consequences of stupid policies. We aren't the ones that started this mess.

That's why I'm talking about what the Left is getting wrong and why I care so much about the Left fucking this up so badly, because they are making themselves into parties I cannot vote for due to their utterly craven betrayal of women. It's hardly rocket science.

and it shouldn’t strain the imagination too much to understand that just because i think labour and the left are failing doesn’t mean im going to vote for reform or the tories

i mean it shouldn’t but apparently it does…pathetic