Reflections on Trans Arguments

That’s a very long-winded way of saying you’re a male supremacist 👀

That's perhaps the most bonkers OP on FWR thay I've ever read.

Oh FFS…. The trans propaganda is strong with this one…yet another man feeling the need to educate us daft females …
And which Every single point can be discredited, and disproved.

Give up Dude….you're making yourself look hysterically stupid.

@LimeFinch Transwomen are men. End. Of. Fucking. Story.

Everything is about the bloody potatoes.

This fiction

This is the fiction upon which the rest of your arguments rely.

the term woman and man are the daily use nouns for adult human males and females.

sure, there are gendered roles that society attaches to them which may be sexist stereotypes, such as, women love makeup, OR biologically linked natural behaviour such as child birth.

but it’s insanely sexist to therefore extrapolate that liking makeup or other feels and interests that are stereotypically associated with women means a male is in actual fact a female.

gender is human invented

but anyway, you’ve completely conceded that point in your para around sport where you acknowledge that there’s a few men who think they’re women competing at a low level but it’s ok as it’s not many or some sort of similar dismissive anti feminist stance.

"Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult,... "

If there ever was a case for keeping a thread, then this is the thread.

Please, MNHQ, don't delete this thread.

The OP has invoked all the classic TRA tropes so that, like @AncientBallerina , I also think that this may be a reverse.

But it does usefully place all the TRA talking points in one place so that, if anyone is looking for a way to refute a particular claim then it will likely end up here on this thread.

TRAs are just TERFs who haven't left the echo chamber yet (either that or misogynists I guess).

"Respectful debate" please

Which trans inclusions do you support?

Using womens toilets?
Using womens changing rooms?Competing in womens sports?
Working in womens rape crisis centres
Caring for elderly women who request female carers?
Nursing female patients who are requesting female nurses?

Which do you support?

OP must be playing devil's advocate. No-one can be that stupid.

Quite. No Mrs Joyful Prize for Raffia Work for him.

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!

Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

This is just bollocks.

There are so many public records available that show that the best male athlete will always beat the best female athlete. It is very easy to go and find those world records.

And since football was of interest to OP, maybe this will help. It was always a fucking bollocks argument.

FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

"In preparation for two upcoming friendlies against Russia, the U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team on Sunday and fell 5-2, according to FC Dallas’ official website. "

and

U.K. Men’s Soccer Team Crushes U.S. Women

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/u-k-mens-soccer-team-crushes-u-s-womens-players/#:~:text=A%20professional%20men%27s%20soccer%20team,have%20over%20their%20female%20counterparts.

and the Australian women's team too....

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

Plus Swimmers

By Doriane Lambelet Coleman
August 16, 2024

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/08/16/womens-sports-transgender-dsd-olympics/

This is a good overall and updated discussion piece with some interesting links.
'Separating athletes in competition on the basis of sex is the only way to account for the female half of the population. No other sorting tool works to achieve this inclusion goal — not height, weight or any other physical characteristic.'

and

"The essential example is Katie Ledecky, who is said to be “better at swimming than anyone is at anything.” She just won an unprecedented fourth straight Olympic gold medal in her best event, the 800-meter freestyle. Her world record time in that event — 8:04.79 — shows up at No. 26 among the best American 15- to 16-year-old boys."

I am more upset by the OP's misspelling of any fule kno than I am of his pathetic attemp to come and teach us wimmin wot's wot.

It's actually quite good to have all the BS listed in one place. Tis like it's own little bingo card!😂

Thanks OP 😁

Perhaps there would be a lot less ridicule if the OP didn't use phrases like Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that! when trying to sum up what they believe the GC position to be. Not posting links that contradict the point they are trying to make would also help.

What do you believe trans people are not included in?

Humans can’t change sex, there’s no more to it than that I’m afraid.

The problem is that when people post nonsense into a community of articulate / amusing / switched on people who have put the effort into research and know the facts - there is every chance that it is not going to go well...

However, this community doesn't ridicule people for being men (at least I have had nothing but supportive reactions and comments) - but if someone is the stereotypical arrogant male who doesn't bother doing any research - posts a load of nonsense and then expects everyone to bow down at their wisdom - well, yes ridicule is pretty fair response!

As akways the devils in the detail isn’t it?

TW (men) taking up places on programmes to promote the inclusion of women in under represented areas such as STEM?

TW (men) being included on women’s sports teams?

TW (men) being included in support groups for female rape survivors?

what exactly do you mean? Included where?

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!

There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Addressing the OP's link about the Olympic guidelines, as if that actually means something. Perhaps the OP didn't know the following:

THE IOC PRIORITISED INCLUSIVITY OVER FAIRNESS

Here is one reminder of what Budgett said about male inclusion:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

And while Budgett appeared to accept that Hubbard had an advantage from going through male puberty, he also stressed that inclusivity was an important factor too.

“There are lots of aspects of physiology and anatomy, and the mental side, that contribute to an elite performance, and it’s very difficult to say, ‘yes, she has an advantage because she went through male puberty,’ when there’s so many other factors to take into account,” he said.

“It’s not simple. I think each sport has to make their own assessment depending on the physiology of that sport, so that they can ensure that there is fair competition, but also the inclusion of everyone – whether they’re male or female – so they are able to take part in the sport they love.”

and then

“One of the reasons there is no new framework published yet is not just because of the difficulty in coming to any consensus,” he added. “It’s because it would have been inappropriate to come out with new guidelines just before the Olympics. There will be a new framework to help individual sports, and we’re working very closely with them, but it’s not published yet.”

TLDR:

Guess what! The individual sports federations have been one by one fully excluding male competitors with transgender identities in their sports, especially at Olympic level because the IOC prioritised inclusion over fairness.

Thanks OP for pointing that out with that link though... great job.

Why do you think men should be included in spaces and services that are meant for women?

Men already have their own spaces and services. Why should they get other people's?

now the TRA's want 'respectful debate' after years of screaming no debate, 'die in a grease fire terf!!' and the like.

Is it because the walls are coming a-crashing down now the general public has become aware of the demands of entitled men and the horrendous behaviours they display when they don't get their own way?

Really OP, many of us have dealt with toddler tantrums in our time.

What do you mean by ‘trans inclusion’?

But WHY do you agree? I mean, factually it's all wrong, and unsupported by science or evidence (including the OP's own linked refs). Because everyone knows, deep down, that puberty isn't an illness, you can't change sex, and there are places and times when single sex accommodations are necessary. Is it just vibes, TWAW no debate stuff?